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This is a fairly hard one to write but I feel at a slight breaking point and have been since March really. I have been meaning to post an update on here for a while however it never feels right so I hold off and edit and edit then just give up....some of this is because I know my BS reads these and assumes (rightly) that its inaccurate and/or manipulative and other times because I fear the responses on here (all good advice just hard to hear at times!) but anyway here I am desperately seeking some help.

So many will recall I have had a big issue with TT, anger and frustration and entitlement when the going gets tough 🙁 I'm ashamed to say that the lying continued for the last three years, it's been a real problem and has been cruel to my BS and is abusive which I need to acknowledge.

I have continued to struggle with the honesty, I am fearful of the repercussions and not allowing her the freedom of choice (more on that) and there have been bigger things about feelings or friends in the past that whilst innocent haven't been made clear to my BS.

So the reason why I am coming here...I am desperate for help and your guidance. I do not want to hurt my BS any further than I already have, I am desperate to work on my behaviour and try to deal with the responses I give her especially when it comes to lying or hiding things which are deceptive and a problem (porn use or the fact I got angry and damaged something rather than tell her I got frustrated)

I can rationally sit here now and say that whatever I have to tell her is nowhere near worse that what I have already done...but I have still struggled so after the last few weeks I have really tried getting out the knee jerk reactions to the little things and start to undo the mess that I have created by revisiting the past and bringing it up and really just acknowledging I have a problem rather than kidding myself and believing I don't .

I again haven't given her autonomy, last week she had a torrid week at work and instead of telling her what came to me that day I decided to hold off to not add further stress on her already full plate....I was going to tell her but in an argument I decided to nervously blurt it out to prove that I had been doing the things that I had agreed I would do....and thus the repeated pattern of being defensive and argumentative began!!

Anyway here I am trying to sort out my issues the lying aspect and the knee jerking is a work in progress an event a couple of weeks ago made me feel utterly repulsed and I swore to myself then that I would commit to the honesty aspect and trust her responses, we have had a couple of honest conversations in that time which broke this cycle in my opinion...anyway 48 hours ago we had a conversation and spoke about a few things this resulted in her disbelieving something I said which resulted in a volatile exchange of words . Initially empathetic I was ...then I started with the "I feel you are bullying me" "You keep moving the goal posts" "You are breaking the agreements that we made with each other" and any form of understanding or remorse goes out the window! All because she believed I was lying and told me that she was done...something which I find impossible to accept/deal with!

I have done some extensive reading on the drama triangle, have tried to list my resentments to process and say goodbye to them and have told myself repeatedly that I am neither the victim or persecutor in my relationship. The problem is....when the BS gets angry and upset, I revert straight back into being defensive and argumentative.

So can anyone make any recommendations on how to avoid being defensive/argumentative/stop with the lying and kidding oneself etc. I just cant find anything that consistently works and its driving me insane and driving her even more so 🙁 the mindset to want to change is there for all our sakes.

Furthermore why do I even keep behaving this way or have the capacity to with someone who I call my wife and thst I am proud of and love.... My BS thinks I'm disordered and whist I've considered NPD etc everything comes back negative....

Any help would be appreciated

[This message restored by Webmaster at 8:19 AM, Thursday, August 13th]

[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:42 PM, Friday, March 20th]

TT,

I'm going to give a quick response now and will reply further later (I'm at work right now in a conference call)

I hear everything you're saying. My lies continued and continued, my defensive behaviour continued and continued. You know my story.

How did I stop? In many ways it is still who I am, my recent post on discussing thoughts and feelings confirms this. Even today, I am battling defensive triggers. I know I can overcome them and most of the time I do, but the man who lied, got defensive and acted in the terrible ways I did "IS STILL THERE" I imagine that part of me will always be there, I just now try to act in a more emotionally mature way. Feel the negative feelings coming and don't allow them to manifest.

For me, it is not a case of fighting the wayward in me, that did not work and resulted in shame spirals and anger. Now I accept that is who I was. I accept I lied, I accept I got angry, I accept my past. This is not to say I am happy with these choices, it means I accept I did it. I also know that these feelings are still there, I still have defensive feeling but I try to intercept them and understand them. Then I can chose to react in a more understanding and empathetic way.

It is hard to get this mentality working, I was a complete asshole for such a long time. BUT I chose to be that asshole. So, surely I can chose not to be?!? I had to chose to stop, it is as simple as that (despite the difficulty we both have in doing it). You need to want to make the choice to make changes to yourself. I mean really want to. I wish I could find the words to explain this in more detail. I hit the lowest point in my life before I actually started making changes. I woke up one morning and that was that. I needed to be the better me and START actually making changes, real change, not superficial fluff changes. REAL changes for me, not to try and placate BS or people on the internat. Only when I chose to be real could I be more supportive to BS.

I am still on that journey, quite a way to go. However, the feelings inside are better, my reactions are less defensive, I do feel empathy, my speed of intercept of defensiveness is better. I did only a few weeks ago have a complete revert back to old ways. Anger and defensiveness came back and I missed the opportunity to intercept. I learnt from this and hopefully next time I feel as bad as I did that day I can use the skills to be more emotionally mature. Look, everyone has a bad day, everyone reacts to situations with negative emotions, everyone gets angry...However, we really can't. when we're feeling it, we need to acknowledge it immediately and talk to BS. Explain the trigger as soon as we can and talk through how we came through it.

I read on here a few years ago a post by someone saying "Just don't" feeling angry? Well just don't. Want to get defensive? JUST DON'T. The post made it sound like I was in control of my anger or defensiveness?!? I dd not get it. Then one day I did. Of course I am in control of my reactions. The fact we can lie, we can make up an excuse or a justification. These are not magic from the ether, they are choices. So, that being the case, SURELY we can chose not to?!? Yeah, we can. So......When being defensive....recognise it....and JUST DON'T

Therapy. I think that’s your next step.

I can’t help but think you re repeating a pattern nd responding to that pattern the same way over and over. I think it likely originated in your childhood and you likely learned this behavior trying to deal with a domineering parent.

When your wife gets angry (justifiably) you are back in that little boy role growing up. It’s engrained. A therapist should be able to help.

The fact your wife is still here with you makes me believe that she also has some healing to do. She is just as engrained in these patterns as you are. I don’t know her or why but someone with a good relationship with themselves wouldn’t be still dealing with this. Do you have a theory as to why she stays?

And to be clear it’s not that I think you are evil or unredeemable. Or even that I don’t think you sincerely want to change. It’s just you have been in this cycle for so long that I don’t think you are going to be able to fix this without some sort of professional help. Is that a possibility at all?

Thanks both for your reply and bulcy I'll reply to you when I get a chance shortly.

So to respond to your questions HO, she says it's because of the kids.... That simple, I am not sure what to believe with regards to that as she also said we have 15 yrs together and she sees us as good friends and that we Share all the same likes and dislikes etc so it feels more than just because of the kids.

In terms of professional support and help, costs are an issue but I have suggested that we try MC and I have also looked again today at IC but she is not interested and doesn't believe it will work....

All I can do at this point really though is to just work out my head and why I have had these reactions over the years / lifetime.... Something I'm starting to believe is a little more complicated than simply just saying I'll be a good person

[This message restored by Webmaster at 8:19 AM, Thursday, August 13th]

[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:42 PM, Friday, March 20th]

I don’t think MC is going to help. I think MC is good when both people are healed enough to work on the relationship.

If you are going to invest at all invest in IC for you. If that’s not possible, are there support groups out there that maybe you could join? I think what you are doing hasn’t worked/isn’t working. I think Bulcy has had similiar issues and hopefully he will come back and tell you what’s worked for him.

For me, I have not struggled with impulse control. I have learned to react to things differently, but that has been about being mindful of what I want and why and acting accordingly. I think if that was going to work for you it would have. I think there is something deep down that is insecure inside of you so when faced with an obstacle you freeze up inside nd let your habits take over.

Do you have a domineering parent? What was home life like for young tiny tim? I know that seems irrelevant, but honestly if you find where it started. It becomes fr less powerful. You can then remind yourself why that time didn’t serve you. You need to find a Way to heal that insecurity, that lack of believing in yourself, learning to love who you are becoming. You are spinning your wheels, so something more structured needs to be introduced.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:00 PM, Friday, May 9th]

Do you have a domineering parent?

Well I did chuckle when you mentioned this, my dad clearly is on the spectrum but was a very strict parent. Ruled with a wooden spoon or a slipper.
I was also the one who got the brunt of his frustration, I recall him once falling down the stars and putting his foot through a few spindles... It was my mums fault who left a box on the stairs, anyway he chased me into the room shouting expletives and telling to me get out the house. (I was in my young teens).

The way his relationship is with my mother is also pretty strange and it's no wonder I have poor coping skills. Never were issues discussed in our household. My dad is very old school in that he never does anything to help out my mum. Is incredibly selfish and has a temper on him which seemingly I've inherited.

The annoying thing is I'm the opposite, I'm helpful in the home I am not as selfish (but I do have selfish traits and do prioritise myself) I don't sod off for a weekend ringing leaving my family at home... I'm just a lot different. That being said he never did this to my mum (to my knowledge, although she did say even if he did she wouldn't want to know).

So yeah.... home was good but really strange when I look back now to what it was like!!

It is very annoying as I have such a strong desire to repair this and I know what is needed to be done but the need to be right or to feel put out takes over and box breathing just doesn't cut it.

I am so disappointed in myself as I just want to do the right thing

[This message restored by Webmaster at 8:19 AM, Thursday, August 13th]

[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:42 PM, Friday, March 20th]

Bulcy,

How did I stop? In many ways it is still who I am, my recent post on discussing thoughts and feelings confirms this. Even today, I am battling defensive triggers. I know I can overcome them and most of the time I do, but the man who lied, got defensive and acted in the terrible ways I did "IS STILL THERE" I imagine that part of me will always be there, I just now try to act in a more emotionally mature way. Feel the negative feelings coming and don't allow them to manifest.

*So I completely agree, I listened to an audio book the other week and it talked about a chap who was a porn/drug/drink addict along with other things, anyway it resonated as he said similar. That this is who he is and he is capable of these behaviours but he will not allow himself to go back to that place. I'm similar in that I accept and recognise that this is who I am, I have the capability and the ability to really damage her now and in the future but I just t dont want to and that involves being able to recognise the "nothing is worse than what I have already done".*

For me, it is not a case of fighting the wayward in me, that did not work and resulted in shame spirals and anger. Now I accept that is who I was. I accept I lied, I accept I got angry, I accept my past. This is not to say I am happy with these choices, it means I accept I did it. I also know that these feelings are still there, I still have defensive feeling but I try to intercept them and understand them. Then I can chose to react in a more understanding and empathetic way.

*This is where I'm hit and miss, some times it's ok and I can manage it but then she may something and I then get frustrated and defensive.*

I read on here a few years ago a post by someone saying "Just don't" feeling angry? Well just don't. Want to get defensive? JUST DON'T. The post made it sound like I was in control of my anger or defensiveness?!? I dd not get it. Then one day I did. Of course I am in control of my reactions. The fact we can lie, we can make up an excuse or a justification. These are not magic from the ether, they are choices. So, that being the case, SURELY we can chose not to?!? Yeah, we can. So......When being defensive....recognise it....and JUST DON'T

*This seems so simple right lol, I wish it was because I'm tired and I'm exhausted and I know my BS is just broken also. I have tried to find tis thead you mention but can't seem to locate it.... If you know anymore about it I'd like to read it.*

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[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:43 PM, Friday, March 20th]

I want to say I understand it’s not simple or I truly believe you would have done it.

So my mom and sister were both raving lunatics at times. And I personally feel that when you live like that through your formative years you become filled with toxic shame.

I may have told you this before but shame is not always just an emotion. Guilt is an emotion triggered by things we have done wrong. And shame came be that way. But people who grow up the way we did have this underlying feeling that we are bad. This is not we feel bad. But that we ourselves are bad.

We tend to take the temperature of others feelings in a constant way and often if it’s not anything but jovial it gives us anxiety. Because of this deep feeling of shame we can react a number of ways, defensive was mine. Yours seems to result in anger. I used to lie all the time when I was young .Sometimes to be more interesting because if you live like I did it was a way of trying to seem like you are normal. But especially if it was something that I believed would make someone see that I was bad.

It didn’t manifest with the same sort of issues as you have but at the root of it, I think that part might be similar. I believe that perhaps you had it worse and also men often go to anger rather than sadness because anger feels strong. I am sure I probably told you to try the book Rising Strong by Brene brown because that is my go to for shame. I think one thing you could do is try writing your dad a letter (you aren’t sending it) and really try and talk to him about the effects of how he was as a dad. I know that sounds blvery woo woo, but I think you need to start processing how that effected you so you can start to let go of some of that.

Then I want you to think about that boy is still you. Think about being a safe place for him as if he is one of your kids. How can you reparent him to feel safe and loved?

Again, woo woo. But this sort of stuff is standard therapy assignments. And while you will not immediately get better it will start raising more questions and more awareness. The more that happens the more you will be able to work with it.

If you can’t find a support group exactly for what you want- recovery is recovery. Any 12 step type program may be utilized because all that stuff is coping.

The biggest thing I learned coping from is Eckhardt Tolle. Very very woo woo, but if you stick with it, what he teaches will help you with mindfulness, it will help you get peace and help you stop the endless cycle you are in. The best book for me was the power of now. But he has podcasts and other forms of learning out there.

That’s my free therapy for you. Let me know how it goes.

Thanks for your time again HO, I've contacted a counsellor this morning that specialises in domestic violence, relationships disorders etc so I'm just waiting on a call back to get me in.

As a psychotherapist I'm hopefully she will have a few more skills compared to my last one who just sat there silently in one session not saying much about anything..... Was rather bizarre.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 8:18 AM, Thursday, August 13th]

[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:43 PM, Friday, March 20th]

In terms of professional support and help, costs are an issue but I have suggested that we try MC and I have also looked again today at IC but she is not interested and doesn't believe it will work.

From my experience going into MC when you or BS are not in "the right place" is a waste of time and money. We paid a MC for 6 months while I was still telling lies. I lied to MC as much as I led to BS. No help whatsoever. I will also say we had a shit counsellor who should have challenged me more, not excused my behaviour, not excuse my infidelity on "unmet needs" and should not have made a joke about having an affair with me while we both went to an individual session with her.

When your wife gets angry (justifiably) you are back in that little boy role growing up. It’s engrained. A therapist should be able to help.

This makes so much sense, especially to me about me. Thanks HO

I think Bulcy has had similiar issues and hopefully he will come back and tell you what’s worked for him.

IC did not work until I let it. That's to say until I stopped telling lies to anyone who could help, they could not help. I did find some fantastic support away from SI (well kinda) I have built a fantastic friendship with a poster on here and he has helped me more than he will ever know. Some of our communication has been blunt but honest. I started to learn how to be honest with myself and to work on my own shame, attempting to take the advise given by so many on SI that I needed to "love myself". I signed up to an online support group based in the US. The group designed for men helped me with emotional intelligence, trauma, infidelity, anxiety etc. I am not sure about advertising other support forums on here, so I'll not add a link, but if you google mens group, I'm sure you'll not go far wrong. I have advertised SI on this site, so hopefully it is a mutually beneficial thing.

I just had to want to stop being the wayward me and start being a more authentic me....Although being authentic to me about me was the first challenge.

"nothing is worse than what I have already done".

Try to remember this.

*This seems so simple right lol, I wish it was because I'm tired and I'm exhausted and I know my BS is just broken also. I have tried to find tis thead you mention but can't seem to locate it.... If you know anymore about it I'd like to read it.*

From memory, it was not a specific thread, just a comment on a thread and I'm sure I'm quoting it how I understood it. The point being made was important though. It leads onto "making choices". That every time we make a choice, we have to make the right choice. Just do it or don't do it. Whichever choice is the right one for your marriage.

The biggest thing I learned coping from is Eckhardt Tolle. Very very woo woo, but if you stick with it, what he teaches will help you with mindfulness, it will help you get peace and help you stop the endless cycle you are in. The best book for me was the power of now. But he has podcasts and other forms of learning out there.

Mindfulness is hugely important, I thought it, CBT ACT and other help out there was to quote HO "woo woo". I was not in the right place to receive the message and I probably did not have the right teacher. I later studied CBT and ACT with a different professional and this worked really well.

TT you have my e-mail, so please reach out anytime.

People have talked about these habits and reactions being engrained, and it's true--your brain forms pathways that go from a stimulus to a practiced reaction like a super highway. You may know of other roads, but your brain will almost always take the fastest, easiest route. The good news is, brains are plastic and with practice, we can change which routes are the freeways. The more you practice a different reaction, the stronger that road becomes. One trick is to practice taking those routes when not in crisis situations so you can build them up. Look for small opportunities in your day to practice honestly, humility, gratefulness, or whatever else is the opposite of your negative patterns. That way, when faced with harder things, your "freeway" will be more likely to be the healthier response.

Evening all, I have been meaning to respond but some issues with work got in the way (fatal car accident with CPR being administered by myself and then a hanging the following day!) so I have been tucked up with some trauma other than Affair related trauma!

After this post the new mantra was repeated over and over "nothing is worse than what I have done!" and I have been opening up and undoing some of the lies that I have told. The two incidents I mentioned above also hit hard, I called for a Councilor the day after and undertook some work related trauma management to try unpicking the effects of my job). In all I have been in a really unsettling place as I try to navigate the feelings that I have been having and trying to unpick 16 years of compartmentalisation and crap that I have squirreled away in that little brain of mine! I also feel this is the reason why I have managed for so long to be able to carry on despite all the lies I have told my BS and not really putting in 100% of the effort when it has come to coming clean!

IC is also a lot different; this one even interviewed me to see if she is someone that can work with me..which I like although there have been a couple of strange comments made in the two sessions that I have had about my involvement in the affair)

Anyway she talked of the drama triangle which has been useful as I know I sit in that and defo have floated around the persecutor and victim role.....plus highlighted the ego states we find ourselves in when arguing.

As mentioned since the 8th I have like I say unpicked and came clean about the things that entered my mind in order to do things the right way rather than keep tormenting my BS, holes had been dug and what came was acceptance before coming clean so there is still a long road ahead but this also brings me to events the last couple of days.

We had a good few days last week, the children went to my parents and as a result the wife and I were left on our own. I get rather anxious when this is the case as it normally ends in a feud but we had a good set of days. Anyway the weekend arrives and I started to feel anxious again and mentioned this to my BS, this then led to a conversation about the lying and the fact she simply has zero trust and in her own words "I will never trust you, not even a bit" again I would hope that we could live a quality life with our children as we both want the same things and do get on. We kept getting interrupted but the conversation in my opinion had ended and that was that fast forward a few hours and there I am sleeping on the sofa as despite the work I feel that I have been doing I am being told that I haven't done a thing...that nothing has changed and that I am a lost cause I accept that last night I struggled with a conversation she bought up and became avoidant something I said I'll not do.

This morning I then wanted to speak with her, to clear up the issue and to talk about what has been going on....that somehow ended up in a conversation where she asked "when was the last time you watched porn?" I believed we had talked about this but clearly hadn't to the extent that she required which is fine, I then reminded her that I haven't watched it since I got my new phone (30th January) due to a number of factors (viruses/trojan software/finding it rather triggering/doom scrolling being unhealthy/my labido being fucked and being rather depressed) this resulted in the "Your lying" and spawned into her getting right into my face, swearing and telling me to get "the fuck out" implying the house. No matter what was said I was then being told I am lying and that she knows I am, refuses to speak to me and just shutting me down.

I got frustrated as I know the truth but with no way of proving this I'm left with just having to either accept what she says or be called names and threatened to be kicked out etc.

My question and my issue that I have.....How the hell do I navigate this when the BS is immediately hostile, telling me to pack my shit and leave, calling me names when she doesn't like my answer and simply says "I know your lying" when there is a total lack of proof that either points away or towards the problem! I understand her total disbelief in me, I understand that she has 0 faith in me and that she has no reason to believe a thing that I say....

I have asked my BS what it is that I should be doing but get told to write on the board....I ask what her expectations are but do not get given any insight or told that I am not meeting them (despite not knowing what they are...) its all becoming very frustrating.

I dont know what it is that I am actually asking here, I guess other than being empathetic what do I do when my BS speaks to me this way.

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[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:43 PM, Friday, March 20th]

Wow. I thought I was the only one going thru this type of thing. I will admit that I've done DARVO too many times in the past AND I understand why he (bs) feels the way he does. I have tried to make changes and thought I was succeeding a couple of times. I was told I didn't change anything and am still doing the same thing. I'm at my wits end! I'm so tired of being told how I'm feeling or what I'm going to do next, being yelled at, called names, told I'm a liar, told to leave the house, etc. I asked my husband what I could do to make amends for the incident the other night and was then asked what I was willing to do. I aaid I'd do anything and was laughed at, again. He refused to tell me because I don't answer his questions, ever, apparently. So, needless to say, I never did get any insight as to what he wanted me to do. In the past he's told me ways to make amends, which I also failed. I know what these things are but they didn't seem like things I could do to make amends for the other night. Ugh,
I'm told it's all my fault, all he did was ask me a question and I got defensive. I don't see it that way but I can't argue or debate him because I'll be told I'm denying his feelings, again. Yet he tells me how I'm feeling all the time and twists my word just enough so it meets his narrative but doesn't represent what I actually said.
I could write so much more but this is already too long. Lol
I'm sorry you are going thru all this, I definitely feel your pain. I don't have any advice for you though, just wanted to tell you that you are not alone. We have some changes to make, we owe them that much and I guarantee it isn't going to be easy at all