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Struggling with this one....

My BS just asked me about disloyalty and why I have been to her throughout the marriage. I'm struggling to answer it and when I asked what her take on it was she responded that basically I just have seen her as a door mat and that I can simply can get away with murder.

That's not my feeling at all, but I am struggling with this one as I have lived every day since the affair fearing she will leave which has guided alot of my issues with lying as I fear THIS will be the time she goes...rather than just being able to let go of the outcome, which has come and gone at various times.

Can anyone share some insight?

[This message restored by Webmaster at 8:17 AM, Thursday, August 13th]

[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:37 PM, Friday, March 20th]

I cannot shed any insight into why you don't value loyalty. However, I do believe that failing to figure that out for yourself and then explaining it to her, as well as you possibly can, will preclude reconciliation.

Most betrayed spouses want to understand why a wayward spouse would take a stroll down Infidelity Lane. While no explanation will ever suffice, what's far more important is understanding why a wayward spouse will never do it again.

I hope by now you understand that lying is only going to make things worse. Most likely your BW is highly attuned to everything you say and the slightest hint of any thing untrue is a massive error on your part.

Although I think each situation is unique, my view is that Waywards often have commonalities. One thing I have realized in therapy is how little my wife had to do with my terrible choices. I had been carrying so much shame and unaddressed trauma for many years and my brain was wired in a way that helped me completely compartmentalize and ignore the impact those choices would have. It was not an intentional lack of respect or disloyalty, but the choices definitely showed both.

I think the media portrayal of infidelity has completely skewed how we all view the underlying reasons. In my case, I did not have any issues in my marriage that would lead someone to think I would stray. That may not make sense to your wife, but over time and with therapy my wife has better understood this.

Glad to hear from you, it’s been a while.

My first thought is "familiarity breeds contempt". I think that humans in general have a tendency to take for granted that which is closest to us. I don’t know if that is the answer for you in this instance, I hope you and your wife can resolve it.

"I had been carrying so much shame and unaddressed trauma for many years and my brain was wired in a way that helped me completely compartmentalize and ignore the impact those choices would have. It was not an intentional lack of respect or disloyalty, but the choices definitely showed both."

And this is essentially what I am saying...

Compartmentalising is my forte and I have been in discussion with my IC with regards to this. There have been a lot of reasons for Compartmentalising and its something I absolute hate but it has I guess served a purpose till now.

My disloyalty has come from a place of selfishness, all my actions throughout my marriage have been selfish, be this due to my need to be validated and liked, my avoidance in challenging my parents, the lying, wanting to move on from all this and from prioritising my job over the needs of my family (when they are ill etc).

I can see how she has formed the opinion that she has, which is that simply there is no loyalty but to give her an answer as to "why" feels an impossible task other than what I've already described.

On top of the selfishness I've also struggled with low self esteem, Communication and we suspect ADHD is going on and I'm currently undergoing an assesment for this but this all makes sense when it comes to my impulsiveness, my issue with criticism (struggling with my BS and her anger, her views and criticism even though it could be well meaning)which can feed into the lying and then the behaviours and other issues I've bought to the table since D day....

[This message restored by Webmaster at 8:17 AM, Thursday, August 13th]

[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:37 PM, Friday, March 20th]

This may come across as harsh, maybe not. But own your shit. Don’t try and deflect from it. Ask yourself what kind of person you want to be and how would you want to be treated if the roles were reversed. It’s not really that damn hard to be a decent human being. But I feel like you are at a crossroads where you need to shit or get off the pot. You want to be a decent person, then do it. If not, don’t, but end the relationship. Your wife deserves the best from you and now is your time to step up and put your money where your mouth is. It all boils down to willpower and determination in being the version of yourself that you’d like to be. My ex couldn’t do it and once I knew she didn’t have it in her I had way too much respect for myself to put up with anymore of her nonsense. If you need help doing it, don’t be afraid of finding a good therapist and figuring your mess out. That’s what she’s wanting to see, the work to change into a safe partner. If you can put your head down, let go of your defenses, get into honest reflection and drive towards positive change, you’ll likely be blown away at the response. She needs to see change and acknowledgement of necessary change. Show her and continue the work for her. People have more power in themselves than they’ll ever understand. You just need a taste of what’s possible and it all starts with you. Get on it!

Do you really not know?? Or your wife can’t pick it?

It was obvious from other actions prior to his affair, my WH has/had communication issues, poor emotional intelligence and was a selfish person. But just being around his family it’s obvious they all just don’t seem to know any better. They are so similar in certain ways. They are all number 1 in their worlds.

Do you have family issues? Past trauma? Are you just born that way?.

You need to work this out. It’s hard to move forward and work on yourself if you can’t at least work out why you’re disloyal. Your wife deserves the work you need to put in.

My disloyalty has come from a place of selfishness, all my actions throughout my marriage have been selfish, be this due to my need to be validated and liked, my avoidance in challenging my parents, the lying, wanting to move on from all this and from prioritising my job over the needs of my family (when they are ill etc).

There’s a couple reasons right there. This is what I’m hearing: You have been putting yourself and your needs first before your family’s. You’re looking for validation from others, when it needs to come from yourself. Honesty is not a value of yours. Your priorities are out of order.

On top of the selfishness I've also struggled with low self esteem, Communication and we suspect ADHD is going on and I'm currently undergoing an assesment for this but this all makes sense when it comes to my impulsiveness, my issue with criticism (struggling with my BS and her anger, her views and criticism even though it could be well meaning)which can feed into the lying and then the behaviours and other issues I've bought to the table since D day....

There’s a few more. Low self-esteem is the underlying reason for seeking validation outside of yourself, and not being able to handle criticism well.

Are you able to communicate your feelings and needs to your wife, or to other supportive, trustworthy people in your life?

You recognize that you struggle with impulsiveness. Are you developing a plan to deal with that when it arises?

Have you committed yourself to radical honesty, not just with your life, but as an overall guiding value in all of your words and actions?

ADHD can cause people to have trouble staying present, which may contribute to you ability to compartmentalize so easily. A meditation practice would be good for improving that.

These are all good places to start and things to work on in IC.

[This message edited by darkdustythoughts at 12:38 PM, Monday, December 22nd]

I also have been avoidant for much of my life and one thing that I struggle with is people pleasing. I think that I will always have to be vigilant about that.

My rule is I can people please if I want to as long as I don’t self abandon in the process. Before I put tha boundary in place for myself my husband would be naturally asking questions such as this one because the bs will run this through various scenarios and the questions all sound different.

It sounds like you know your whys, between this post and many I have read from you it doesn’t seem like you are clueless. It sounds more like when she is emotional or asks you questions that may lead to her being emotional it’s like you get deer in the headlights. That panic then makes you try and shit it all down as fast as you can but then that makes it worse.

What she wants to understand and I think you are capable of telling her is not only how it came to be but how it will be different. I think that answer is maybe the one you need to come to terms with and give her without being asked that as a follow up.

I know that for me my mother was very domineering and her questions/investigations often would cause me to shut down because what ever I said would be held against me later or used in ways that I never knew what to expect. My way of coping was to tell her as little as possible, but it never worked she would always keep investigating and digging.

I have a feeling that dynamic exists in your marriage. This makes your challenge a little harder because you are going to have to learn to be in the moment with her and gain more confidence that you can communicate, stay open and not shut down.

I think it’s less you don’t know the answers more you fear her response to them. How has your anger levels been?

I can’t remember if you two also do marriage counseling, but at some point she also is going to have to learn to communicate in a way that is also less loaded. I say that more because I have followed you from the beginning and unfortunately an avoidant and someone who can be very aggressive is a hard match. She has to come down a few decimals and you need to come up some. I tend to think she triggers things from your upbringing and vice versa and this dynamics are making it hard for you two to truly connect. Did you read "rising strong" yet? Because you are going to have to be the braver one to start working on a new dynamic. She is not going to be able to be better until you dare to be a bit more courageous and own it.

I feel the same as some of the posters above. Lack of loyalty had a lot more to do with being selfish, opting for escapism, and it came at my husbands expense. Becoming loyal means always telling the truth, being able to sit with the discomfort, and be on his side. It’s earned in the micro moments of your marriage. And you are going to need to be the one to lead the charge of change. Answer her calmly, and always calmly ask for what you neee in those moments too.

You are not just afraid she will leave. You are afraid of yourself, and her. By truly owning your issue and being able to respond to her consistently loving, I think you can practice your way from that dynamic.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:37 PM, Monday, December 22nd]

Also I was reading another post and I see dobletracion posted about the accountability ladder. I haven’t seen that before but I think you should look it up and read about it. It may provide some further mapping that you need to start more serious repairs in this particular struggle you are having.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:48 PM, Monday, December 22nd]

Thanks for the responses folks, just feel at times that I am going slightly insane with my thoughts and believing I'm hitting the mark but then being told I haven't is somewhat confusing.

Darkdustythoughts

"Are you able to communicate your feelings and needs to your wife, or to other supportive, trustworthy people in your life?"

Feelings & needs yes-ish....the difficulty that I have had is that I have feared/avoided the actual issue as I didn't want to rock the boat so to speak which has been a massive problem eg, agree not to watch porn but then due to a lack of sex rather than just tell her tht my labido had returned and I feel I need to "sort myself out" I chose to avoid that conversation and did it anyway which then resulted in me breaking that promise.

So I can talk about my feelings and needs quite clearly but if it comes to anything about us I find I have to choose my words very carefully.... When it comes to my IC, I haven't found that an issue at all and interestingly she doesn't feel I'm avoidant despite me pointing out the many different areas where I have found myself to be avoidant

Ref the impulsiveness, absolutely I have a plan for that side of things which is based on the belief of just slowing everything down....and giving it longer to process I also feel that knowing what it is I am dealing with and why I could feel a particular way allows me to ensure I can tackle it.

As sun tzu said

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle"

H/O

"It sounds like you know your whys, between this post and many I have read from you it doesn’t seem like you are clueless."

I would like to think this far down the line I do have some clue as to it all and you are right I have often found myself just wanting to blast through the conversation as quick as I can but as with what I said above about the impulsiveness I'm also trying to slow it down, sometimes I can but others I can sometimes find myself in a bit of a whirlpool.

I know that for me my mother was very domineering and her questions/investigations often would cause me to shut down because what ever I said would be held against me later or used in ways that I never knew what to expect. My way of coping was to tell her as little as possible, but it never worked she would always keep investigating and digging.

I have a feeling that dynamic exists in your marriage. This makes your challenge a little harder because you are going to have to learn to be in the moment with her and gain more confidence that you can communicate, stay open and not shut down.

I think it’s less you don’t know the answers more you fear her response to them. How has your anger levels been?

And you are right, I do find myself shutting down but I don't know if I would call her domineering I think it's different to that in that she has the answers in her head and therefore if I respond differently she will then become triggered and it results in a fall out...i can also share with her everything but because it doesn't satisfy her I then find we go around and around... I'm learning to try and ask her for some guidance though.

Terms of the anger this isn't so much an issue for me. Over the summer I started EMDR for work related troubles and for some of what's been going on at home as I reached a real breaking point. It has helped massively and I've been dealing with some of the childhood stuff and seeing how toxic my it all was and realising exactly where many of my issues have stemmed from .... Despite still believing others had it far worse...either way my BS may still point out I'm frustrated or annoyed because she senses a shift in my tone but there can be varying reasons for this but I rarely feel anger anymore and frustration and that is leading to more calmer discussions (I think).

The biggest issue I have is that I'm essentially competing with her beliefs and I've done nothing these last 4 years to really break those (with any consistency)

[This message restored by Webmaster at 8:17 AM, Thursday, August 13th]

[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:37 PM, Friday, March 20th]

Maybe on a good day, you could try turning up the romance and initiating sex. Take her on a nice date, see if she’s receptive to physical touch, draw her a nice, relaxing bath or give her a massage, and escalate from there if things are going well. Sometimes having an explicit discussion about libido can, ironically, be a mood killer.

What are the beliefs of hers you are competing against?

[This message edited by darkdustythoughts at 7:32 PM, Monday, December 22nd]

Dusty.... Yeah that's not going to happen.

We have always been quite affectionate however this weekend I have learnt a few things which have made me question this. Regardless intimacy is not on the cards and won't be (not my doing)

The conflicting beliefs is a number of different things really and is kind of irrelevant as they are her beliefs and what I need to remember is that I have no control over these.

Historically I have got myself in a tangle trying to convince or persuade her... Controlling the narrative again so her belief is truly valid.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 8:17 AM, Thursday, August 13th]

[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:38 PM, Friday, March 20th]

Are you attempting to "control the narrative" or come to a mutual understanding of the truth? It sounds like something that might be worked through in MC. Forgive me if you tried that already.

So I can say for certain that the lying, getting frustrated and angry certainly was an attempt to control the narrative.

My actions now, through these conversations is absolutely trying to reach mutual understanding which is why I posed this question.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 8:17 AM, Thursday, August 13th]

[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:38 PM, Friday, March 20th]

When was the last time you lied to her? You probably already know this, but every count of dishonesty resets your credibility to zero.

Perhaps you could ask exactly what it is she believes, and follow up with whether she wants those beliefs to be the truth. If she says no, ask if she would be willing to consider evidence to the contrary. You could also ask what would change her mind, as a way of getting some direction, though different BS have different opinions about how much guidance they should give their WS. 4 years is an awful long time to be dealing with that.

[This message edited by darkdustythoughts at 9:06 PM, Monday, December 22nd]

"When was the last time you lied to her? You probably already know this, but every count of dishonesty resets your credibility to zero."

Absolutely, my credibility points are in the negative region at the moment.

The last lie told was in sept, this wasn't anything to do with the affair. instead though my manipulation of her to skip the accountability of what I had done was what truly broke the camels back.again if I had of just been strong enough to explain the situation we would probably have been OK....its again that fear of criticism etc

Since then we've been moving forward but there's been no intimacy and some very up and down emotions which are totally understandable.....

I am aware of her beliefs though but its sadly nothing I can evidence or provide anything to the contrary of.

This whole disloyalty thing ties into this as does a belief I simply don't love her because of everything that I've done... Like she rightly pointed out, there must be more of a reason rather "than my issues".

Its been left at the moment of her essentially doing the 180 till she can see my actions as she is sick of my words...

[This message restored by Webmaster at 8:17 AM, Thursday, August 13th]

[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:38 PM, Friday, March 20th]

I didn’t mean to say your wife is domineering. I reread that in your answer and it does sound that way.

What I meant to say is your wife is more dominant. Like quicker on her feet with the questions and answers. I understand the issues come from your lack of consistency and in the past anger control. My mom was both domineering and dominant. Your wife has just had her shit way more together than you have and that gives her sort of an edge in most disagreements.

With the additional information you gave - I am going to tell you something that I think helped me. What you have described is basically transmuting your anger- that is a HUGE deal- that’s amazing to hear that the therapy worked that well.

So here is what you may be more ready to hear than in the past…yes we as the offending party must be humble, and you have shown humility in some of your posts so I think you generally are, you seem to empathize with where your wife is.

So now is the time that you start to give yourself some credit for the work you have done. I don’t mean that in an arrogant way. I mean it in the way that if you start truly recognizing and appreciating your progress, you will gain the confidence you need to stand taller in it. It’s that growing confidence that you start being more in firm answers, meaning you will start finding new ways to explain it. As you demonstrate your own steadiness, she will have the best chance at starting to believe you. Add that to her really seeing the anger isn’t coming back, and you start to understand what giving emotional safety feels and looks like and maybe even what doors it can open. And from there, you will feel even better about your progress and start to build more of a richness in that as you master the nuances.

Yes it’s frustrating you can’t give her the answers that satisfy her. Keep soul soup searching for those. The will come In time and grow deeper meanings. I sometimes in my quiet time will ask the question "what am I not seeing?" And as I sit there and drift in my thoughts the answers come and things just keep building on that.

You have taken care of some really hard things to conquer. This work is leading you down a good path. Step into your worthiness next, with humility. And the more you do that, the more you wear down your fragility, and you be able to risk more and lean into vulnerability. That vulnerability lends itself to connection. And that connection will help you to build trust. But you must slow down as you know and listen and sit with it with her. It’s easier to do that when you know you are not a piece of shit.

Yes, you have done some shitty things and have done a lot of damage, but a piece of shit doesn’t work as hard as you have and actually dealt with anger issues. You are redeemable, and in that way you have to begin to know that more strongly- you do not need her stamp of approval to make it true. You make it true, and she sees it. Otherwise, you will only ever find your worth by winning her back, and that’s going to be the thing that repels her. So it is unlikely to happen. Give it to yourself, that validation, and you will be able to start showing more of the strength she needs.

I am proud of you.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:52 PM, Monday, December 22nd]

Hi Tinytim1980 (such a good time of year for your username),

If you were to sit quietly and give a truthful answer to her question, without worrying about or considering her reaction, what would it be?

My husband did not ask me this kind of question. If he did, my answer would be, I was primarily loyal to myself, and he was second. He was above anyone else, but I was first. If I thought I needed something, I would take care of myself, regardless of the effect on him. And I would say that I now understand and want to live as if we are one unit, a hurt to him is the same as a hurt to me, and vice versa. If he asked me early in reconciliation, he would know to watch for evidence of that, and now that it has been several years, he has evidence of that.

Tinytim, if I remember correctly, your wife has a style of interacting when she is upset that vents on you, with high emotional displays, underminding, insulting, etc. Was that just during the TT period and afterward or is it still true? I’m not undermining her - one of my kids is like that and has been like that since she was little - it’s just her temperament. My husband is not like that. When he is angry he looks hyper rational and disdainful. This used to be super hard for me to respond to, because he was right! But eventually I learned to hold myself together enough to say to myself, wow, he’s really hurting inside, and I could address his hurting rather than my fear that his disdainfulness was justified. (Side note: what made this especially hard was that his disdain WAS justified, but that’s not what was happening in that moment. So I had to stare at the monster, remind myself it was smoke, and walk through it). Can you hold yourself together when you wife is acting bitter and figure out what she needs in that moment rather than clenching on the inside?

One more thing - for some men, and I say this for men because I have not personally met any women for whom this is true but undoubtedly they exist - lack of sex is really really hard. My husband is like this. It mostly happens when he gets sick (eg a bad cold or stomach virus that kids inevitably bring back from the dorms at the holidays) because I find illness a turnoff I can’t get past. Even if he logically understands what’s going on, there is something perhaps hormonal? that shifts his personality. We jokingly call it Abstinence Derangement Syndrome tho I am careful about the joke because he’s sensitive. I have no doubt that if I was injured or ill and he could never have sex again, he would not experience ADS and would be a wonderful sexless husband. But the waiting, watching and wanting that happens when there is a reason we don’t have sex (illness, inconvenient avalanching schedules) creates a dynamic that I experience negatively. So I thought of that when I was reading of your lack of intimacy. If you can manage to decide that you want the marriage even if you never have sex again, and live as if that was true, I think it might open up space for your wife to desire you, eventually. Maybe not. And it would have to be a genuine and truthful belief that you WANT the marriage without sex.

I am struggling with this one as I have lived every day since the affair fearing she will leave which has guided alot of my issues with lying as I fear THIS will be the time she goes...

I'm not sure what you mean by "my issues with lying." Do you mean lying in the past, or are you still lying now? I can tell you if you are still lying to her, about anything, you might as well just stop trying to R and call it quits because now is the time for complete honesty and transparency. Complete honesty. Not just about your affair, but even the little day to day stuff like "Yeah, I spent more than I should have on X," or "Yeah, I stopped at the bar on the way home," or "I did eat the last peanut butter cookie," or whatever. Right now she's super hyper sensitive to anything resembling dishonesty, and she's going to overreact to any little white lie. You're supposed to be rebuilding trust, and if you aren't completely honest about everything you do you're going to wreck any foundation you might have started building.

[This message edited by Pogre at 7:01 PM, Thursday, December 25th]