SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

First off I wish I was arrogant like you !

The way the betrayal was publicized most likely played a big role in your response. There’s a shame associated with staying with cheating partner. You were done considering it was publicly humiliating for you. Honestly I don’t think anyone would tell you or anyone in your position to R. So it’s not arrogance but more the shame brought out by her affair.

It makes it easier to stay and work when fewer people know and the R is free of judgements from other people.

I never had self esteem issues ( even after what my WH has done) so never know what it is about seeking validation from others. But I don’t think anything you did or did not do could prevent her from cheating. She had to feel good about herself and not rely on others to make her feel good. It’s not your burden to carry, not anymore.

I think you should thank your "arrogance" or lack of it and make the most of your life. It’s always good to know what you want and what you don’t want. You could live a fulfilling life with that kind of confidence. More peace and arrogance to you !

[This message edited by Abalone123 at 8:41 PM, Saturday, July 22nd]

I am from the military family. So this is going to come from that perspective and culture.

When things go sideways, the training kicks in. You don’t freeze. You improvise, you adapt, and you overcome.

That is what you did. Straightforward survival response that served you well.

There is zero reason to think that you would have that response towards your children.

But you would have that response, and more, to anything or anyone who threatened your children.

Some people have it naturally, some don’t, and some others learn it.

It’s an asset, not a liability.

It’s a feature, not a bug.

I too am a bit of an Overthinker. So try not to get up into your own head to much. It’s a spin cycle.

WaitedWayTooLong, it's a similar anxiousness I feel ever time I see a post from you knowing your back story. You, and others, have been a great help to many, but every time I see your user name, my heart spikes remembering your situation.

I’m sorry in my posts bring you discomfort. Let me know and I will bow out of this thread.

Don’t feel sorry for me. Things didn’t pan out for me the way I planned, and honestly I would have been happy if she didn’t cheat and we grew old together. But she did, so that wasn’t a choice.

The result was I got to experience a lot of different things that I never would have. Being on my own and doing whatever I wanted. I had great sex with a lot of younger women, and now have a great girlfriend. Things are pretty good.

Anyway I think we are similar in temperament. My advice is it’s ok to contemplate various what it scenarios. But in the end you did the best for you.

She wasn’t owned a second chance. Sounds like she destroyed two families and it’s on her as she was the pursuer. She humiliated your family. At least my ex was a willing participant, but not the driver.

For your piece of mind you might want to let her have her say. I have that to my EX so at least I had clarity of why and what happened. In the end it didn’t matter. Her reasoning didn’t change what she did.

Stop beating yourself up. Get to the gym, buy some new clothes, and get back out there. There are plenty of women who will be happy to be in your company and you won’t have to look at them everyday with disgust and anger.

Let me know if you want me to bow out

WaitedWayTooLong, it's a similar anxiousness I feel ever time I see a post from you knowing your back story. You, and others, have been a great help to many, but every time I see your user name, my heart spikes remembering your situation.

I’m sorry in my posts bring you discomfort. Let me know and I will bow out of this thread.

Don’t feel sorry for me. Things didn’t pan out for me the way I planned, and honestly I would have been happy if she didn’t cheat and we grew old together. But she did, so that wasn’t a choice.

The result was I got to experience a lot of different things that I never would have. Being on my own and doing whatever I wanted. I had great sex with a lot of younger women, and now have a great girlfriend. Things are pretty good.

Anyway I think we are similar in temperament. My advice is it’s ok to contemplate various what it scenarios. But in the end you did the best for you.

She wasn’t owned a second chance. Sounds like she destroyed two families and it’s on her as she was the pursuer. She humiliated your family. At least my ex was a willing participant, but not the driver.

For your piece of mind you might want to let her have her say. I have that to my EX so at least I had clarity of why and what happened. In the end it didn’t matter. Her reasoning didn’t change what she did.

Stop beating yourself up. Get to the gym, buy some new clothes, and get back out there. There are plenty of women who will be happy to be in your company and you won’t have to look at them everyday with disgust and anger.

Let me know if you want me to bow out

Yup, I sure wish I had your fortitude. But on BIG DDay #1, I had 2 young kids and we shared a business that he would never NEVER be able to buy me out of. I stayed for the business more than the kids or love.

My WH also has serious self-esteem issues, but he's one of those who acts brash and confident to deflect. Makes him into a right asshole in most social situations.

Before the affair, I pumped his ego up as much and as often as I could. There was never any doubt how much I desired and loved him. What I couldn't do, however, was actually be dependent on him. In any way. I wanted him more that anyone I've ever been with, but I sure as hell didn't need him.

(Hint, if you want to be "necessary" DO THINGS PEOPLE ACTUALLY NEED!)

We've since sold the business and I wonder why I'm still here. Probably because it just seems cruel after 8 years to kick him to the curb when he hasn't done anything particularly egregious in the last 4 years (not actively falling dick first into people as far as I know.) But our 20th anniversary is coming up, and I'm seriously reevaluating, as from what I understand, once you're married for 20 years, I'll be paying for his pathetic lazy ass in the way of alimony for the rest of his life. Until he gloms onto another sugar momma.

You did what was right for you and your family. There is nothing wrong with a health, earned sense of self-respect. She fucked around and found out.

First, WaitedWayTooLong, I didn’t mean to imply for you not to respond. Reading your posts to others, and me, has helped me a lot. In some ways, yours is such an extreme situation on the spectrum of infidelity, it provided an incredible reference point and helped me sort through feelings I had in response to your situation. The potency is what spikes me, but worth the tradeoff. It does makes me very happy to hear the good things you’ve experienced since.

I’m being stubborn. I am reading and considering feedback, and I would probably provide similar feedback, but I’m stuck in this loop that I must have influenced this situation. I know this isn’t right, and I know it goes against "you didn’t cause this" message. I know that stuff intellectually, but I can’t let it go, and the parts of that can’t let it go are what I think I’m struggling with right now. I can’t reconcile these parts.

My theme is thinking I had control over this situation, her issues, my emotions, our sex life. Believing in that control is how I'm defining my arrogance. I suppose it’s that control that pushed me out of infidelity, which several posters commented on. I guess I should be grateful for that then.

I don’t know if this applies, but does the "letting go out the outcome" SI message come into play here? I always thought of that as applying just to WS’ trying to push an outcome, whereas BS’ are trying to structure the situation for a potential outcome. My control side lights up at the idea of trying to let go of the outcome. Maybe I’m using it the wrong way here since I needed the control to get out, but seems to be emotionally hampering me now.

This is all so messy. Maybe it’s time to dive more sincerely into IC. The feedback, and formulating posts has hopefully given me enough to make me more receptive to IC.

Thanks again for all the feedback, and taking the time. I had one other question. Some of you had suggestions of talking with my XWW. As anxious as she makes me, I find that idea appealing purely from the standpoint of getting more information on what happened, both before and after the A, with her, and with me. I’ve already burned this to the ground though. We had our divorce, and I’ve been immovable in many ways. If she’s already trying to move on in her own way, do I even have the right to pull her into my own ad hoc therapy session? Am I just using her at that point, and could that be damaging to her if she viewed it as an opportunity to get back together? Although I made her the enemy, she is still the mother of my children.

We had our divorce, and I’ve been immovable in many ways. If she’s already trying to move on in her own way, do I even have the right to pull her into my own ad hoc therapy session?

It may actually be therapeutic for her to look you in the face and explain what she did. She may need to unburden herself. From your description, she likely has serious emotional baggage long prior to her A. It will take her years to undo the damage to her own psyche. Counterintuitive as it may seem, you may be the best person to help her navigate her reasons why she did this. Not as a husband or potential partner, but as the victim of her supremely selfish, self-destructive behavior. If you can accept what she did--not forgive, mind you, but at least understand why--then that could help her on her own path to self-forgiveness. This may also help with your future co-parenting relationship.

[This message edited by 1994 at 9:53 PM, Monday, July 24th]

I don’t know if this applies, but does the "letting go out the outcome" SI message come into play here? I always thought of that as applying just to WS’ trying to push an outcome, whereas BS’ are trying to structure the situation for a potential outcome. My control side lights up at the idea of trying to let go of the outcome. Maybe I’m using it the wrong way here since I needed the control to get out, but seems to be emotionally hampering me now.

Yes, that's usually meant for a WS.

It would be a fool's errand for a BS to just sit back and let go of the outcome. I think a BS needs to have a plan and to be ready to execute it. You seem to understand the concept of you can't control the actions of others but you can control how you respond to them. You were faced with some pretty awful actions and you responded in a way that was true to yourself.

Do you not like how you respond to betrayal? Not how do others feel or what do others do...but do YOU approve of how you respond? It's funny to me that I worked on trying to respond the way you do instead of my more authentic response of rage before growing cold. Maybe my view is skewed, but I see your actions as much healthier than most people can manage.

Only you can answer whether your reactions are motivated by fear or by moral clarity. Because honestly, either motivation can lead to a healthy outcome.

Letting go of the outcome is for both. It's doing what is best regardless of the outcome on the marriage. For the BS it is doing what they need to heal themselves without regard to whether this helps or harms healing the marriage. Really the same is true for the WS, but they likely carried damage before the A which needs to be healed as that contributed to allowing them to betray those closest to them.

[This message edited by grubs at 2:16 AM, Tuesday, July 25th]

IMO, you're asking questions that a good IC can help with. We're peer counselors. We have a lot of experience collectively, and we've done a lot of thinking about our experiences. But we don't know you.

Most of human communications is non-verbal. Here all we have is the words you type, which isn't as good has hearing you.

A good IC can see and hear you. They get your tone of voice, the words you emphasize and de-emphasize, the subjects you shy away from and subjects that engage you. And it's all done in real time, so you both can drill down into what you mean by your words.

I think a good IC can help you find out where you want to go.My reco is to find a good IC

*****

I agree with grubs on giving up trying to control the outcome. In fact, I think it's even more important for a BS to let go of the outcome than for a WS.

IMO, there's no preparation for infidelity. If you come into a relationship thinking you have to break it off or have to R in the case of betrayal and let that 'decision' drive you, you are likely to be doing yourself a disservice.

Each infidelity is unique to the people involved. The best a person can do is to stop, figure out what they want, figure out what is possible, and act in their own best interests. That means: IMO, after being betrayed, considering many options is the best way to healing. Some of the options can be discarded as soon as they occur (For example, it didn't take me long to discard strangling my W), but IMO the more options one thinks of, the better.

WSes are human beings, but the BS has to be objective about their WS. First, the BS needs to figure out what they want. If they want D, that's the end of the decision tree. If they want R, they need to look at their WS as an object to find out if the WS is a good candidate for R. If the WS won't do the work needed to R, the BS's life will suck worse if they stay than if they leave - again, JMO.

The BS is well-advised to let the outcome grow organically and not to try to control it.

I agree with grubs on giving up trying to control the outcome. In fact, I think it's even more important for a BS to let go of the outcome than for a WS.

I would think that only applies when you have a BS who wants R at all costs and they need to be talked down from that. I don't think a BS should just sit back and let go. I think a BS, regardless of whether they want R or D initially, needs to have a plan for it going south. Otherwise that outcome might hit them in the face and find them utterly unprepared. A WS could empty the bank account and leave with the AP while the BS isn't making any backup plans.

I do get what you're saying, I do, but I think the letting go of the outcome definitely cannot be the BS taking no protective action.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 7:09 PM, Tuesday, July 25th]

1994

Thank you for the feedback on reaching out to my XWW. It caused an interesting trigger in me. Seeing my XWW as broken and that I could potentially be instrumental in her recovery made me want to save her, KISA (is that right)? Then I imagine her starting to talk about her issues and my rage spikes from still feeling the injustice from all of this. I don’t know if I could control myself. Maybe that makes meeting with her less likely. I couldn’t just use her for me and not listen to anything she has to say.

I’m really interested in yours and others’ feedback on what a meeting with my XWW would even look like, and potential consequences.

I’ll respond to the other posters shortly.

Grubs

Letting go of the outcome is probably going to be the first big topic in IC. The idea of letting go in something like this triggers me. Like I said in my last post, I’m seeing more controlling tendencies in me than I realized. I think that’s what made me eject people that betrayed me before. I either wanted to forget about them because they did something out of my control, or I regained control by getting rid of them.

DevastatedDee

Do you not like how you respond to betrayal?

I don’t regret my response to the betrayal. I quite literally can't conceive of doing it differently. The injustice felt too great. Maybe that’s where the rage came from, but I think it was more about my pride, and a giant "how dare you!" I’m wrapping ego and arrogance all into that. And, simply put, the idea of me letting pride drive my decisions bothers me. If I was just a good friend of my XWW (and if she didn’t make me a factor in her betrayal), I would be there to help her through this struggle. Instead, because it slighted me, I want nothing to do with her. For the first time, in a very long time, I'm wondering where the middle ground is there.

It's painfully obvious now to me now that I haven't processed my emotions from all of this. I threw them in a bag and dumped them in a river. It got me out of infidelity, but I "rageswept" (new SI term?) everything. Like we posted earlier, I think I'm similar to your mom in the treatment of betrayal, but with this one may have just been too big for me to treat the same way as the others.

Sissoon

I’m reaching the same conclusion on me needing an IC to sort through this. I think posting here is giving me what I needing to go back to IC. I couldn’t hear them before. It felt too theoretical. Live feedback from others that experienced this is making me look at a lot of this differently, so maybe it will stick this time.

[This message edited by FromADistance at 3:01 AM, Wednesday, July 26th]

I don’t regret my response to the betrayal. I quite literally can't conceive of doing it differently. The injustice felt too great. Maybe that’s where the rage came from, but I think it was more about my pride, and a giant "how dare you!" I’m wrapping ego and arrogance all into that. And, simply put, the idea of me letting pride drive my decisions bothers me. If I was just a good friend of my XWW (and if she didn’t make me a factor in her betrayal), I would be there to help her through this struggle. Instead, because it slighted me, I want nothing to do with her. For the first time, in a very long time, I'm wondering where the middle ground is there.

Well, to be fair, how DARE she? I mean really, how dare she? It's appalling to treat your spouse this way. It's abusive. So yes, how DARE she? That's not pride. That's not ego. That's the truth. Anger is our friend in these situations.

Listen, my XWH needs a lot of help. He really is a pitiable person in a lot of ways nowadays. I hope that someone does help him and that he gets himself together. That person is not going to be me. I am not a martyr. You are not a martyr either. Once the dysfunction is weaponized against me, that person loses me. It is not my place to help them at that point. That would make me a willing victim. Therapists cannot have family as clients for a reason. It's unethical. You would be the least likely person to be able to fix her. Nothing you did by treating her well in your marriage "fixed" her. There is nothing wrong with not wanting anything to do with someone who cheated on you. Cheating is abuse. I don't think it's unhealthy to not want to be around someone who abused you.

My XWH is very good at being the victim. You'd think that he was the injured party, poor thing with all of his issues making him sleep with who knows how many women. He was under the impression that I would be sympathetic and want to help him get better. Imagine being an alcoholic and hitting someone in your car and putting them in a wheelchair. Would you go cry to that person in the hospital and expect them to hold your hand through all of your childhood trauma that led you to drive drunk that night? No. The audacity of that. There is help out there for people who want it, though. She can find help. She can get therapy. She can dig into all of her issues. That's her job. It has nothing to do with you. You are not a jerk. You aren't unreasonable. You are not flawed in your reaction. You are likely healthier than most with your reaction.

You are likely healthier than most with your reaction.

I have to agree with DD on this one. It is the healthiest reaction. So many BS's on this site still suffering through this for years thinking they are in R or trying to R. That was me believing in hopium with someone who never bothered to help themselves or be accountable for their actions. Not many make it to healthy R. They may be R'd but sometimes they come back with another D-Day or they still think of the A as it hangs over their head like a dark shadow. One thing with leaving or D you don't have to wonder anymore if that person will cheat again or have those haunting thoughts of the A constantly. The A never left my mind until I left my XWS.

Late to this discussion but just want to add my input along with those encouraging you to lighten up on yourself. Really. I think it may be counter productive for you to continue to dwell on this vein of thought. IMO, you did what any loving, faithful Husband would do when they hear/see an expressed need from their spouse which is try to help. Thats not arrogance, thats confident concern coupled with appropriate action. Problem is, there was far more to that expressed need than met the eye, kind of like a pot hole that was actually a chasm in disguise. The more attention, affirmation and validation you poured in there, the more the void remained.

There is also an insidious aspect to this that many BS's and WS's have alluded to on this site that may well have been a factor here too and that is when the loving efforts of the faithful spouse to validate and affirm their W or H are dismissed out of hand. Those efforts are "non-validated" if you will. Kind of a "familiarity breeds contempt" effect. Ive seen it discussed here many times and in many ways.

Case in point. There is a well known poster here that wrote about the fact that he discussed with his WW why the affirmation and validation of the AP meant so very much to her when he told her over and over how beautiful and talented she was and how much he loved and valued her? Her response (paraphrasing here)? "You had to say those things as my husband. Its expected....part of the job description." This revelation may not sound like much, but to me it is so very telling....and chilling. Mix that mindset in with a trauma or stressful life event along with a developmental gap and you may well have trouble brewing, especially when potential POSOM catches wind of the vulnerability.

All that to say, its on your WW as it was with my then WW. Oh, I have faults aplenty but neglecting the physical, emotional and communicational needs of my then WW on the whole was not one of them. The issue was deep within her and was out of my reach sadly.

Trust me when I tell you that my radar is highly tuned to this phenomenon with my now Wife. If I percieve that my efforts on her behalf are taken for granted or devalued, youd better believe it will be discussed and right quick. Same goes for me from her (shes a former BW) and we dig at it until we pull it out, root and stem.

So...arrogance? I dont see it from what you wrote.

As to moving forward with the D, I affirm that decision as well. I endured years of a mangled marriage and regret deeply not doing what you did.

So, solidarity Brother. Strength peace and continued healing to you.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 12:04 PM, Saturday, July 29th]