SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

My wife was involved in a LTA of 15 years and we are 3 years post Dday and recovering. One of the things that I said on Dday was that I wanted the love that she gave her affair partner that should have been for me, given back to me in the same way she gave it. So many things have changed in her life since Dday. Lots of physical changes and age along with retirement has caught up with her. She is obviously not the same woman physically and emotionally and sexually she was during the affair.I have seen and heard how different she was sexually with her affair partner, and she knows that. Now getting back to my origional question. Should a husband who has been cheated on expect the same treatment his wife gave her affair partner after Dday? Is this realistic expectation at all? I am guessing that most of you will say it's unrealistic and wishfull thinking. My wife has been amazing and loving once she snapped out of the'fog', but sexually she is nowhere near where she used to be. It's frustrating to me because I'm wound up sexually like I was when I was in my 20's. To me my wife's ship has sailed sexually, and I think it's for many reasons physically and emotionally. I can't help to feel frustrated and resentful for what I lost during her sexually peak years to that wife stealing prick!! I'm sorry for being so blunt.

Lost1313

Hello 50 page thread!

I wouldn’t expect the same treatment, I’d expect better. What better evidence of being someone’s second choice than to be treated less than their first choice?
Unless there are physical parts now missing, it’s the 21st century. Anyone can go to a clinic and get their hormones brought up to the levels of a 24 yr old.

It's important to preface this by saying I have no personal experience with reconciliation after infidelity, so my perspective is purely observational and speculative.

When considering the sexual aspect of infidelity, a key question for me is whether we're talking about specific sex acts and their frequency. It seems to be a common perception that affairs often involve more adventurous or "fun" sex for the AP, while the marital bed might be more conventional.

For example, if a couple regularly engages in anal sex, it wouldn't be surprising to learn that the unfaithful partner also engaged in it with their AP. What I would find far more egregious is if something like anal sex was a rare or special occasion for the couple (say, 5-10 times a year), or perhaps never allowed at all, yet the AP was receiving this frequently.

Anal sex is just one example; this principle applies to any sexual act. For instance, (TMI alert) I personally enjoy bondage sessions. However, due to the significant time and preparation involved, these sessions are typically limited to once a month or so compared to our average sex life. Life simply gets in the way with work, gym, friends, and family commitments. I'm not complaining about this; it's just a reality of a busy life.

If I discovered my partner was cheating and engaging in such elaborate acts multiple times a week with someone else, I would be devastated. It's not necessarily the acts themselves, as we do engage in those things as a couple. Instead, it's the extra effort and special treatment the other person is receiving—the blatant double standard. This would be particularly painful if my partner claimed I was the love of her life, yet she was making this kind of effort for someone else.

Furthermore, if my partner had engaged in an act with an AP that she had never allowed me to try, I would expect her to be willing to explore that with me immediately. Otherwise, I would be packing her bags.

If she wasn't willing, I would find such a scenario unforgivable. If I were in your shoes, I would absolutely expect the same level of intimacy and adventurousness, or I'd show her the door.

When I've read threads on this before and I'm fairly sure they've been numerous. In my perspective it always defaults to a ludicrous argument, generally from WW's stating: 'You are not entitled to specific sex acts from you wife that she doesn't want to do' to which I respond, I suppose not but she is not entitled to stay my wife. It's a free world with free decisions. Lube up or leave.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 6:48 PM, Thursday, June 5th]

"Deserve" is such a loaded word. A betrayed husband/wife/partner deserves fidelity, honesty, and kindness. Do we deserve any excellence an AP received? We deserve better! We should've had the gifts, the picnics, the car sex, the spiced up bedroom, the midnight text messages, the sexy pics.

But we didn't get that.

Ultimately, it comes down to the pain you feel. Can you let it go? Can you accept and love your wife for who she is able to be with you today?

I think it's natural to feel frustrated, resentful, angry, and sad about what's happened to you, your sex life, your relationship. My sex life is also dead (forever without significant medical intervention) thanks to my WS's affair. It's one of several things I find hard to get past. Some things are forgivable, some aren't. Only you know where to draw the line for yourself.

If you want to have a productive conversation with your wife, you should tell her that you’re not happy or satisfied with your sex life, and be specific about what is you need and want. Then take it from there. If she truly is invested in your happiness, she will at least make an effort and try to come to a compromise with you.

As for your resentment over the fact that she had a passionate 15-year affair with another man, while it is a normal fact of life that women’s sex drives tank after menopause, I don’t know how a husband is supposed to cope with the idea that another man got the best of her in the bedroom.

But since you’ve chosen to reconcile despite this, then my only advice to you is to try to focus on the good things about your marriage that made you want to keep it.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 7:07 PM, Thursday, June 5th]

Well, that is one thing I will say about my WW. She's going way above and beyond to insist that sex with me is far better and far more adventurous than anything she did with her AP. Nothing is off limits, and her enthusiasm is off the charts. Except for the long dry spell we had due to the medication I was on we always did have a very strong sex life tho, but it's been supercharged for the last several weeks. She told me the other night that she's willing to do anything with me to keep the spark alive, and she's been following through. We're not quite at retirement age tho, so I suppose that is something to consider.

I am with blue on this one-

Rather than comparing, decide what you want and ask for it. If the answer is no, you have to decide whether to continue to marriage or find a way to be at peace with it. I see no reason for you to continue to suffer indefinitely.

The problem with comparing is this- and know the question I am about to pose is just rhetorical and meant to make a point rather than believing it has any merit…are you willing to give her the things the AP did? Not meaning sexually but all the unhealthy bullshit she was eating up? No of course not- that is insulting. The ap had no risks in telling her whatever she wanted to hear and pretending to be Prince Charming. I think what you would be better to focus on is creating something that is entirely your own as a couple.

And to be fair, there are still many benefits to physical intimacy that do not include an orgasm. If her body doesn’t function in that way as often or as easily, there is still so much connection and intimacy that could be had for us older folk. We have been married a long time and have hit places where we were in a slump. We have learned to just go with the flow and be joyous in our bodies together. And I find the more often we would do that some of those embers started a fire once again. It’s not hopeless. Putting pressure on something squashes it, making it open and playful and about just being together intimately may just bring back more than you think it can.

Also, to ruminate or become stuck on certain details is definitely normal for a bs. Figuring out a way to find peace is not an easy journey. Make that your goal, and the answers will come.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:06 PM, Thursday, June 5th]

Wait No Thanks For The Memories, why do you say your sex life is forever dead? What happened? Or do you mean your husband's affair turned you off to sex with him?

Lube up or leave.

It’s a good thing you have a principle against reconciling, you are for certain not cut out for that.

Lost-

I do not recommend if your goal is to reconcile, that be the way you try and reignite your wife’s libido. In your circumstance, your wife is older and this problem would probably have developed without an affair. I would address it in the same manner.

Proclaiming that she owes sex is simply not a way that you are going to get to the goal of having a mutually enjoyable sex life. Which is a big goal in reconciliation. Who wants to have sex with a person who is under duress instead of someone super excited about being naked with you? There is a level of ick to that she may never recover her sexual feelings towards you. And I am not ignoring the significant fear it is for the bs to get it back for the ws. It’s only in this instance that does not seem to be the case.

Women have a primarily responsive desire, while men have a spontaneous. I am not saying women never have the spontaneous or initiate sex, it’s just largely our appetite is created more often through stimulus.

And I believe that is usually the position Dr is talking about:

In my perspective it always defaults to a ludicrous argument, generally from WW's stating: 'You are not entitled to specific sex acts from you wife that she doesn't want to do'

And to correct this slightly I think women in general explain this, not ws. Women in general are not cum dumpsters who should lube up or leave. And I am guessing men who desire reconciliation likely have no desire to tell her such a thing, but I can’t speak to that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:32 AM, Friday, June 6th]

I sometimes feel not cut out to weigh in on these threads...

If you find your wife won't even try to fulfill sex acts she did with AP (perhaps even enthusiastically) that you desire, I think disappointment and anger are reasonable feelings to have over it.

You also aren't going to be able to *make her* do something she doesn't want to.

I thought that was a good weigh in thisisfine. It really does boil down to just that.

I was simply trying to be pithy with that line, I didn't expect it to be taken by you so seriously.

Women in general are not cum dumpsters who should lube up or leave.

I agree completely; there's no need for further clarification on this point.

What I do find perplexing is the notion that while it's perfectly acceptable to have requirements and standards in every other aspect of a relationship, when applying these same principles to sex you seem to be somehow implying I'm a misogynistic.

My stance is straightforward: it is entirely fair for a BS to require their partner to engage in the same sexual acts with them that they performed with an AP. This applies equally to all genders. For instance, if a WH hasn't performed oral sex on his wife in years but did so with his AP all the time, I believe it's a valid requirement for the wife to ask him to do so with her. See Ozzy Osbourne and Sharon Osbourne's reconciliation story when Ozzy was caught cheating. This was a factor.

I'm not speaking on ways to reignite her libido or what stimuli will aid in the end goal. All of this can be negotiated if the will and want from her is their to fulfill her partner sexually.

However If the WS is unwilling to meet this requirement, that's also their prerogative. No one is being forced to do anything. However, the betrayed spouse is then well within their rights to end the relationship because their fundamental needs and requirements are not being met.

Also, to clarify, in the thread I was referring to, though some others shared the view, The loudest voices were indeed from specifically WWs. Perhaps this wasn't representative of the site as a whole. We can speculate on why that was and I could easily propose theories as to why they were the loudest voices - but that's not needed for right here.

Agreed or disagree with this stance, it's no skin off my back. I get that this attempt of a pithy line may have got under your skin but please don't imply this stance is misogynistic because I believe it cuts both ways, across gender.

PS... If I was trying to pithy and somewhat humorous on this thread and the genders were reversed I would have went for: 'lick up or leave' but perhaps this would lead to a call of misandry and a evident statement that men aren't just rug-munchers (cringed writing that but was looking for a equivalence to cum-dumpsters) who should lick up or leave.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 10:56 AM, Friday, June 6th]

There have been several epic, massively digressive threads about this subject. I will say that virtually every BH who perceives that his WW was more sexual with her AP desires her to be as sexual with him, or moreso, after DDay. That feeling by the BH is 100% normal and legitimate. As a feeling.

It is also 100% true that a wife doesn't "owe" sex to a husband. Period.

More to the point of your question, you can't make a woman feel desire she doesn't feel, nor can you manipulate her into feeling it by being obsequious, or offering things like acts of service glazed with faux flattery tinged with the bitterness and anger you are so clearly bottling up inside. You might guilt her into faking desire or grudgingly acceding to sex acts she doesn't wish to engage in with you, but would you really want that?

I would note also that where a WW is caught in an affair and truly wants to reconcile with her husband, it is very common that the WW sex-bombs the BH. The fact that your WW has not done that tells you pretty much all you need to know about where her heart resides in terms of desire for true reconciliation with you. She presumably knows that you have chosen to preclude divorce as an option (at least divorce initiated by you -- keep in mind that she could choose to divorce you at any time). At age 65, you both have entered the fourth quarter. She has been or will be going through normal physical changes that diminish her sexual appetite. She's had her life's epic love affair and has built the memories of it that she can cherish in her waning years. You are a comfy runway to coast out her final years without a lot of disruption. She says she "loves" you. There are multiple kinds of love. In your case, it's philia, not eros. You need to be clear on that.

The underlying facts of your thread are unusual because she functionally divorced you in secret, keeping you around as a roommate and source of income, while marrying another man. The desire she harbored for him, the cocoon of intimacy she wove with him, those are places she still clearly harbors and cherishes. It's equally clear that you will never have those things with her. You are clearly Plan B in terms of eros.

You have stated in other comments that you will not consider divorce. That is of course your prerogative. However, the standard advice to any betrayed person is (a) figure out what you want and need to be satisfied with your marriage, and (b) if you're not getting those things, leave the marriage. In business, you negotiate from a position of strength if you have options and your adverse party is aware you have options. Because of your choice to take divorce off the table no matter what, you have zero options. This is why you are here functionally asking the same question over and over: "Why won't my wife do what I wish she would do to make me feel better?"

The answer to your question is simple and obvious: She won't do what you wish she would do because she doesn't want to. She has no desire to. Your WW was highly sexual with the AP because she desired him in that way. She is not highly sexual with you because she does not desire you in that way. She has no imperative to help you heal. She's fine cohabiting with you and your bitterness to the grave.

People here will try to ameliorate your pain by talking about the "fantasy" element in the affair, how it wasn't real, how it's functionally a transactional exchange of ego kibbles for pussy, all that. Explaining a thing is not the same as excusing a thing. From the perspective of your sexual satisfaction, does the "why" matter? Whatever psychobabble people use to describe the etiology of her desire, in the end, she desired the AP, but she doesn't desire you.

Furthermore, in most affairs that "pussy for kibbles" calculus lasts around 4-9 months, maybe a year. Where it went on for 15 solid years, it's clear that it was something else. Your wife had a love affair. A marriage, really. Her heart and mind resolved a decade or more ago in terms of where her true love and passion resides. I'd remind you that her AP knew her truth. You're still getting TT. In terms of emotional intimacy, your WW shared a ton more intimacy with that AP than she has or will with you. In every respect except the paper on file downtown, the AP was her husband.

Which leads me to my suggestion. You have unwittingly been living a secret, one-sided open marriage since around age 50. Now that the affair is out in the open, you're still functionally living a one-sided open marriage because your WW's sexual desire and heart's longing still belong to her AP. Why not at least be honest about it and open the marriage all the way? Tell your wife that you will remain legally married to her, residing with her, etc., but that you're going to get yourself on the apps and find the sexual desire you crave. It would not be cheating because, unlike your WW, you would not be sneaking, hiding, and lying.

For men your age, as long as you are solvent, reasonably fit, and your junk still points north when called upon to do so, the world is a cornucopia of sexual opportunity. Widows. Divorcees. Long-neglected married women. I'm around your age. I have several buddies our age who have divorced in the last five or so years. Their experience has been uniform on this point. The most recent met a widow who had been the primary caretaker for her husband as he slowly died from cancer. She said: "Honey, I haven't had sex in 15 years and I intend to make up for lost time." Find yourself a woman like that. Tell your wife that, because the passion you have been deprived of is clearly not going to be available at home, you intend to spend the next ten years or so going out into the world to find it. But unlike her, you're not going to lie about it, nor sneak around. She can choose to take it or leave it.

Right now, what she has on offer for you for the rest of your years is the scraps of her life. The leftovers now that her true love has moved out of her life. You don't have to settle for scraps.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 2:07 PM, Friday, June 6th]

If someone wants live their life as if they're single, then they should be single.

Opening the relationship is going to create more problems than it solves. No troubled relationship-- or any dysfunctional situation, for that matter-- has ever been improved by adding more people to it.

@Butforthegrace

Really well reasoned and logical argument. I have no notes.

Odds are you will likely get eaten alive for you recommendation though - people seem to hate the concept of open marriages. I certainly wouldn't want one but if your assessment of the situation is correct it seems like the most respectable and functional outcome.

More to the point of your question, you can't make a woman feel desire she doesn't feel

I disagree with this. Women primarily have a responsive desire. I think there are lots of ways to increase her desire for sex and for you. And to increase all aspects of intimacy in general.

I think we have to be careful with our assumptions here. We really have no idea.

First, we have no idea what factors are for her lack of desire. Other times he posts, he expresses that she has health and age issues and that she is a loving wife. I hate to tell you but we all end up here at points in a marriage. Just because of her age doesn’t mean it can’t be recovered.

He first needs to communicate with his wife so she knows his feelings. We have advised this to him before and he still doesn’t tell her for it to even begin to be addressed. So assuming she wouldn’t want to solve the situation is not helpful. Women in their sixties commonly experience lack of desire due to lack of hormones. It doesn’t mean she wants to give up, she probably thinks things are fine.

It’s common for bs to get in patterns of rumination or being stuck in a specific issue of the affair. I think there are a lot of things that can help this, and I hope some bs who experienced this will chime in. I used to have lots of problems with ruminations, and our imaginations can really run wild. He is unlikely to use the method I did to fix that or I would recommend it.

I do agree ending a relationship because of this issue is a reasonable thing to consider.. The feelings are reasonable and understandable.

Telling this man that the ap was the great love of her life is a cruel and sketchy assumption. We have no idea if that is true or not. Long term affairs can be the result of trauma bonds and other things besides love.

DR- I did not intend to paint you as a misogynist in general. Just because I didn’t appreciate the humor doesn’t create an entire moral judgment on you. I felt the humor was off and disrespectful. His wife is still his wife, he still loves her or he wouldn’t be in this situation.

I have been in most of those threads other than during the two year hiatus I was gone from the site. I simply stated it was more a woman in general position rather than specifically a ws one. And honestly lots of times I was the only ws in the conversation with multiple posts in the threads.

We largely reject open marriage as a solution because they require higher levels of trust and communication. People come here when those things are in very poor shape. It’s just saner for the bs to avoid creating more drama to overcome. It’s better they resolve their marriage. Either rebuild trust and happiness first, or get out. It’s simply not a solution that works well fresh out of infidelity. You realize an open marriage means she can go have sex with who she wants, right? Do you not see how detrimental that would be for lost? That’s why we highly discourage it.

I will point out as profusely as you seemed to agree with butforthefrace but you have really condemned sex bombing as further abuse in the past.

However, let’s move on as I would like to see lost get the support he needs.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:36 PM, Friday, June 6th]

Comparison with the ap is a trap. Obviously, there's no comparison in my case, but even in straight As, the sex is going to be different - different people, different environments, different assumptions, different everything accept the mechanics, and even the mechanics are likely to be different in some ways.

Comparison implies some sort of competition, but WSes ALWAYS affair down. I understand that wanting to compete with the ap is a wrong turn many of us make, and I understand that it's hard work to get back onto a healing path, but no one heals by wanting to drop dow, etc., etc., etc. to the ap's level.

*****

One of my requirements for R was that my W treat me better than she treated ow. That meant figuring out how to show that she loved me, was in love with me, and desired me. That meant rearranging her life when necessary to accommodate me. That meant arranging nights out.

Sex ... I don't understand wanting what a WS does with the ap. I understand wanting what I want, and I certainly expressed that - but my W was a CSA, and I was willing to put some stuff off limits, because I did not want to be like her abuser if i could avoid it. I understood that might not seem logical, but feelings have a logic of their own.

If the WS refuses specific acts with the BS, I can understand D. I can understand putting desire for those acts aside in the hope that one's partner will change their mind in the future. I can understand asking for sympathy.

But IMO any partner is entitled to refuse a specific act. Unwanted coercion doesn't build healthy bonds, IMO.

*****

An open M at this point seems unattainable. Open Ms need to be free choices with explicit boundaries. I don't see how this would be a free choice with clear boundaries for Lost. It's more like a consolation prize. If I'm right about that, consolation prizes don't heal.

One's partner is an autonomous human being with desires and abilities of their own and a right to make a life that accords with those desires and abilities.

Sex was a requirement for our R, and at 65, my W and I were still quite capable. If my W had not been willing, I told myself I'd D, and I think I would have. I still think the best ways to handle a partner who won't meet sexual requirements is 1) leave, and 2) decide to accept what the partner is willing to give.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:09 PM, Friday, June 6th]

Is anyone entitled to sex acts from their spouse?
Is’t it more an expectation rather than an entitlement?
Isn’t it supposed to be something you want to give and you want to accept?

I think one issue about discussions in this vein is the assumption that the infidelity is about sex. By the time the WS has a sexual experience or sexual comparison with another person the affair has already taken place. Sex tends to be the pay-off in infidelity IMHO rather than the infidelity itself.

Like – if your spouse meets someone at a bar, might kiss them or fondle or whatever but no "sex" yet. Is that infidelity? Or wont it become infidelity until the post-coitus smoke, where the WS can mentally rate the action and compare it to the spouse? In my world it becomes infidelity the moment the WS crosses a border that leads to the sex.

I find the lube up comment in extreme bad taste.

I knew the moment he wrote "deserve" he’d trigger all kinds of folks here. This one seems to be one of those "primal" issues for (many of) us men that (many) women struggle to even begin to understand the deepest level of betrayal & anger here.

He first needs to communicate with his wife so she knows his feelings.

Yes he does. That said, you can’t ask someone to desire you sexually. They either do, or they don’t.

OP, since you’ve ruled out D, you’re just going to have to live with this. And while the truth hurts, I don’t think it’s unreasonable at all to point out her AP was her true "eros" lover, and that ship has now sailed. It is what it is.

yes he does. That said, you can’t ask someone to desire you sexually. They either do, or they don’t.

Completely disagree. It’s a rare marriage that both parties have the same desire for sex, and likely have two different descriptions of what a satisfactory sex life looks like.

I have been married for decades, and we have had a pretty consistent sex life. However, there have been times when my husband has said "hey I feel like I am not getting enough special attention from you in our sex life"

I will be blunt here to illustrate my point- we have always been somewhere in the 3-5 times a week vicinity, maybe as low as 2 here and there. And I would say 3 might be the overall norm, meaning about every other day. We both provide oral sex 95 percent of the time before intercourse.

For some men that would be awesome. But he felt like there was a quality issue and we communicated until we figured out where it was falling down.

Women often need stimulus to feel their desire. Generally, but probably not always true - we do not think about sex as many times a day as a man does on a consistent basis. Even lower after menopause is complete. It’s why a lot of men complain their wife doesn’t initiate enough. I am not saying I don’t ever initiate or haven’t had days when I couldn’t wait to get home to attack him, but that is not even every week.

The main thing that changed our sex life at different points and has kept it going strong communication. Our preferences have evolved as we have.

I have had conversations with him about needing different things than what he is providing as well. And we will talk about what’s working and not working for me until we get it figured out.

You can talk about sex and ask for things and get them. And just because she isn’t currently providing them doesn’t mean she won’t or doesn’t care to.

So first, we have no idea how often they have sex or the quality of it. We only know his fears that have been triggered by her affair, which are understandable.

Second, if you are the lower desire partner (which for us as actually been a place we have both been in during different parts of our marriage) it’s probable that you think everything is fine until told otherwise. Your needs are being met, and it’s not your job to read minds to know the other person’s haven’t.

OP, since you’ve ruled out D, you’re just going to have to live with this. And while the truth hurts, I don’t think it’s unreasonable at all to point out her AP was her true "eros" lover, and that ship has now sailed. It is what it is.

It’s not reasonable to assume that because we have no idea how she feels. Affairs are often trauma bonds because of the push/pull dynamics, fears, and dysfunctions they include. When someone has an affair there are all sorts of psychological things that I won’t bother to describe as to avoid "psycho babble" but there are lots of things besides love that goes on.

I will point at many dysfunctional marriages or relationships that go on for decades and that have nothing to do with love- it’s more things like codependency, fear, convenience, and otherwise. Just because she had a long term affair doesn’t always mean love. In fact, I think people who have affairs have a very screwed up view of love that should be examined.

Lost’s wife has been with him for 50 years, and they likely have a family together, they have both stayed in it after the affair, it’s a far more reasonable view that he is the love of her life. But I don’t know that either so I do not assert it.

These assumptions are based on things that can have other explanations, and I do think it’s cruel to tell someone trying to navigate this that you know what his wife feels and thinks though you have never met her. He hasn’t said enough in all his posts on this site for us to declare that, in fact he insists that she loves him.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:16 PM, Friday, June 6th]