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Well I've pretty comprehensively outlined my stance. I stand by what I've said that's what you're asking. I've read over the post several times and think it's a logically sound argument that represents my thoughts.

Affair fog is merely a sanitised metaphor. It's not real in any true sense of the word.

To illustrate this, consider the experiences of individuals who have endured war, abuse, or even the infidelity itself. They often describe a feeling of being "underwater"—a state of mental cloudiness, confusion, or detachment. Victims of abuse, for instance, could theoretically start saying, "I wasn't thinking clearly; I was underwater at the time," to describe their state during traumatic events.

My argument is that we should call this feeling what it truly is: Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). We already have a precise, unambiguous term for such a state. Using "PTSD" leaves no room for hidden meanings or agendas, unlike the metaphorical "affair fog." It doesn't santize anything. It's doesn't allude to loss of agency or free wil.

Similarly, if you were in a state of limerence, say that. If you were experiencing cognitive dissonance, state that. I'm in no way denying the complex feelings you had while betraying your partner. I'm merely saying affair fog isn't real.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 8:31 PM, Monday, July 21st]

** member to member **

In my experience, 'fog' has been used in these pages as an excuse and as a description.

It's been used as an excuse by new BSes who think they want R and by WSes who haven't become remorseful.

It's been used as a shorthand description by some remorseful WSes while healing, former WSes, and healing or healed BSes.

Personally, I am comfortable describing my W while in her A as 'in a fog'. Nevertheless, I had no trouble holding her to my requirements for R. Of course, that may be because she never tried to minimize her A.

I find it convenient to read and write 'fog' rather than describe it every time. I appreciate the people who use the term and who read it as it's intended.

Context is usually sufficient to tell what a poster intends when they post about affair fog. I need to read more from Searchingforsun to know how she uses the term, but I think BSR and Pippin are pretty clear.

While I can accept that cheating is a result of PTSD for many WSes, the term has the same failing that 'fog' does - it can be a shorthand description, and it can be an excuse. Frankly, IMO 'fog' is a lot clearer description of the WS's state of mind than 'PTSD'.

Besides, if you use 'fog', you can use 'fogged up', too. That usually stays within the boundaries of polite conversation.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 8:45 PM, Monday, July 21st]

That's a fair opinion, and I have no issues with "fog" being used as shorthand. I'm personally uncomfortable with it for the reasons I've outlined, but in the context of it being shorthand, it doesn't really bother me.

However, where I feel I have to speak up is when some members appear to be arguing that it's "real" in any sense outside of a metaphorical shorthand to explain more complex psychological phenomena.

Ultimately, it's a little pedantic, I've ran out of things to say on the matter.

I think of it like the time period where the WS is still in the A mindset, and they're experiencing distorted thinking and emotional confusion.

I've read so much on it and some WSs think of it as part of limerance and blindness to see beyond that but my fWS never experienced limerance.

He didn't love and certainly in a lot of ways didn't even like the AP, but his head was in some kind of fog for sure.

He romanticised the A as a great friendship, even though this woman was ostensibly a psycho.

He lost all moral clarity surrounding that - such as feeling entitled to miss his "friend" or to offer her comfort

He lost all integrity, and lied to me about NC and more.

He was completely irrational. This person was quite literally doing things like threatening him or trying to destroy his career and he couldn't see it fully.

He was very much addicted to what the A gave him. I think this is different for every WS but in my fWS it was the belief in being adored, so amazing someone would try to kill for him, a sense of "coolness" and this kind of love bombing that was completely unnatural.

It took him about 4 months to move past that once AP was no longer physically present, and then I think another year to truly see how nuts he was.

I do see that "fog" as a real thing but rather than being an excuse I just think it's the place WSs end up after a series of decisions turns then into a shit person.

I saw it as addiction, not so much to the A, but more like when people let themselves slide to rock bottom and they're not a person of integrity anymore.

Having an A and sustaining one takes a lot of bad, selfish and destructive choices and the shock of dday isn't always enough to snap them out of it.

I think the answer to "how long" is up to you, because in that destructive, selfish mindset I think they will keep going as long as you let them.

The "fog" is I think also contagious because the blindsided and traumatised BS is in so much shock and pain that they also can't act rationally or often fully act in ways that are best for them.

I second the advice of the 180 for you. If you can get yourself out of the fog, you will start to find your anger and your self worth. Many of us make the mistake you're making to deferring degrees.

My fWS and I are very happily reconciled and I am so happy I stayed but I also deeply regret that I didn't tell him to go f himself much earlier.

For the record, I don't agree that I am trying to distract myself from understanding the deeper, often uncomfortable, psychological drivers of my actions by describing them as in part due to affair fog.

DrSoolers, how do you account for BS like GraceLoves and The1stWife describing their observations of the affair fog? Do you not accept their self-reports?

However, where I feel I have to speak up is when some members appear to be arguing that it's "real" in any sense outside of a metaphorical shorthand to explain more complex psychological phenomena.

This reads like you are positioning yourself as the arbiter of reality. Am I misreading your intention? And/or could you share your definition of reality and how you decide whether or not something is real?

[This message edited by Pippin at 12:10 PM, Wednesday, July 23rd]

how do you account for BS like GraceLoves and The1stWife describing their observations of the affair fog?

Affair fog is a state of mind and is a proven condition (otherwise it wouldn’t have a name). It’s a syndrome of an affair wherein the cheater believes this new person, lifestyle, blah blah blah is the greatest thing since sliced bread

It’s infatuation but more than infatuation IMO.

The OW was heavily tattooed- something my H always stated he despised. She was much younger and a real drama queen. He was feeling like she needed him and he was her knight in shining armor (another recognized syndrome).

I understood more about my H than he did about himself. When he first ended the affair he was a nightmare to live with. Imagine watching your H become moody and depressed b/c he no longer had the OW in his life. In his mind he’s now stuck with his "boring" wife. And it showed.

Suddenly things change and I believe he’s over the affair. He’s come back to reality instead of living in Fantasyland. The truth was the affair re-started and he was back with the OW (unbeknownst to me).

All this to say affair fog is not an excuse or rationalization to cheat. It is what happens to many many cheaters when the BS recognizes why the affair just doesn’t end.

The cheaters are delusional in believing this affair is the answer to their happiness, problems etc.

And it’s something the cheater has to deal with on their own. The BS can threaten D or a number if things but until the cheater comes to reality — nothing will change for the BS.

This reads like you are positioning yourself as the arbiter of reality. Am I misreading your intention? And/or could you share your definition of reality and how you decide whether or not something is real?

I can confirm I'm not positioning myself as the arbiter of reality. I am, however, free to point out reality where I see it distorted by subjective experience or convenient narratives. You are free to say up is down or left is right; it's no skin off my nose. My "up" is up, "down" is down, and "affair fog" is merely metaphorical shorthand.

Affair fog is a state of mind and is a proven condition (otherwise it wouldn’t have a name).

This was precisely why I spoke out. People, please do your own research. Despite its common usage in popular discourse and some anecdotal accounts, "affair fog" is not a recognized psychological or medical condition by any major professional board or diagnostic manual. It is no more a clinically "proven condition" than Neil Young's heart has the chemical symbol AU. "Heart of Gold" reference. It's a metaphor, a way to describe intense emotional and cognitive distortion, but it does not absolve accountability.

I'm not speaking further on the matter as I'm fearful that this is no longer of value to OP.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 4:14 PM, Wednesday, July 23rd]

Infidelity is unequivocally a conscious choice, never an uncontrollable state. To maintain a double life requires significant executive functioning and deliberate decision-making, far from any genuine impairment.

I 100% agree with this. I hate the term "Affair Fog." It's either a delusional state or an addiction, but I believe that what the WS feels during the time of their A is real. Maybe later upon reflection after the A is over they may feel shame for their actions. Similar to looking back on an ex and you no longer feel the feelings you felt while in the R, now feelings have been replaced with regret or disgust. I believe they have grown past the experience and feelings change. Doesn't change the fact that fond feelings were felt for the person at one time.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 4:49 PM, Wednesday, July 23rd]

I haven't dealt with affair fogs myself. Of my two cheaters, one was a serial cheater and he just did it because he was good looking and charming and women threw themselves at him and he didn't throw them back. It was all opportunity. I don't think he cared about them, or particularly about anyone else. Just a real lack of depth. My present spouse did online things and had a long term EA with a prior girl friend. For him, I think it was all about fantasy. We've had a very stressful time together for most of our 25 years and it got very intense for him with his demented father....this was after my demented mother passed, so it's been fun. I think his on line dating BS was about making an alternate persona, being a smooth Don Juan type or sophisticated guy instead of the ordinary Joe he is in most respects. I think he just wanted to feel good about himself and he got that from other people. The EA, well he's known her for 40 years or so and I think they're just very long distance friends, it seems to have cooled off. Frankly, I don't care anymore and haven't for some time. I don't control him and I'm not the marriage police.

The affair fog sounds like a very intense emotional and later physical connection that takes over their lives, like an obsession. I haven't dealt with it, as I say, but my gut feeling is to shock them back down into reality, which probably means filing for divorce. People don't have to go through with it, and even if they do, you can remarry later if you want, but nothing is as bracing as a fresh divorce filing. It says, I'm serious about this, cut this shit out now. If you really hope to keep and revive the marriage, to me it's the best step. They'll just sidestep all the talking and figuring out and pleading and counseling and whatever, with more lies and everything is done to THEIR schedule. You have to disrupt the control and power balance of the relationship by taking that back through action. Inaction always benefits the wayward, action gives power back to you.

Crazyblindsided: "Doesn't change the fact that fond feelings were felt for the person at one time."

This is the thing.....even if their feelings change for their AP and the affair itself, even if they somehow come out of it and hit themselves upside the head "what was I doing" etc....it doesn't change things for the BS. We're still left with the gift bag of shit and what do you do with it. You still know, and always will know that they did this to you, they are capable of something you could not ever imagine. I was so shocked to find my spouse doing multiple on line dating, like WTF??????? He's the last person in the world I would ever have thought this of. So it's not just what he did, it's what he did to ME in doing that, that violation became part of who I am now. Just like any other shitty thing that happens, it does leave a scar of some size, and that's the sticking point. Even if they are so sad about doing it, so apologetic and regretful, they try to do nice things for you, whatever, you still know they were capable of pulling something you would never imagine and I don't think you ever look at them the same way again. That's why it keeps cropping up years later. It does. It could be any trigger even talking too long to the neighbor next door. It could be anything. You don't know everything you need to know to feel fully secure in the relationship....there's always a potential big unknown ready to leap out at you.

So....it's not a once sided thing of their feelings or their fantasies or whatever. All that shit left a mark and it usually doesn't come out. Like an iron scorch, there's always a little bit there no matter how hard you scrub. I think the best time for handling an affair might be before it happens, to have those discussions of what you will do it....and to do something as soon as you become aware rather than hoping it passes. You know now going forward that he or she can always "have fond feelings" for someone else and you don't know how that's going to end up. It's why I like to emphasize taking action as a BS rather than trying to "understand" or wait it out. Action restores the power balance...somewhat...and makes you feel like you have some control of the situation instead of being in an agonizing limbo.

This is a genuinely recognized psychological phenomenon: an involuntary, intense infatuation and obsession with another person, driven by a desperate longing for them to desire you back.

Despite its common usage in popular discourse and some anecdotal accounts, "affair fog" is not a recognized psychological or medical condition by any major professional board or diagnostic manual.

Do I understand correctly that you are asserting that something is real if it has been described by psychological research and framed by a psychological theory, and that if it has not, it is QED not real? Are you aware of how dynamic psychological theorizing is? That the entire category of Asperger's, which helped thousands of people understand their lived experience, is now gone because of a shift that psychologists made? (or rather, a small group of psychologists). The current intense debate about ADHD, whether it is or is not located in the brain, whether it is or is not "real"?

I would place a large bet that the research around limerence is based on qualitative research - self-reports, interviews, questionnaires - followed by psychological theorizing. Perhaps they have drawn blood and found changes in hormonal levels. Perhaps there have been MRIs that have shown brain regions that are consistently activated. As I'm sure you know, a theory is an unprovable framework that explains data (self reports, questionnaires, hormonal levels, MRI scans). The same research methods and theorizing could be used to investigate affair fog, which I think has some marked, definitionally important differences to limerence, though there is probably overlap. Self-reports exist. Low inference behavioral observations by external people exist (on this thread). That the research and theoretical framing hasn't been done does not mean it wouldn't be found if researchers went looking.

I am, however, free to point out reality where I see it distorted by subjective experience or convenient narratives.

Indeed. Have you ever wondered how your perception of reality is distorted by your subjective experience and narratives convenient to you?

OP, please say if you would rather this thread remain focused on your experience. I would immediately defer.

BondJaneBond, Crazyblindsided, The1stWife, GraceLoves, Sisoon, and DrSoolers (though what I am about to write applies to you on other threads and not this one) - I read your personal experiences with heartache for you. I believe that SI is at its best when people describe and share their experience, and listen with grace to the experience of others.