SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Big- yes, I have a deadline. It coincides with what is best for my kids but it is reasonable.

Nuke- somehow you know my post Dday timeline better than my therapist! The answers that she provided yesterday made most of my other questions much less important. None of those answers can fix what’s broken. So I’m pulling back. Not pursuing conversation, not hoping for a miracle. I have her health and the kids’ best interests in mind and my deadline is tied to those things.

Financially, I’m lucky enough to have a very good understanding of what we have, what we owe, etc. Our kids are adults, but there is still college/grad school tuition and other big ticket items, but that is just moving the numbers around and splitting things fairly.

Some Guy- I don’t want to punish her, I recognize now that she’s always been a bullshitter. I just loved her and let most of her nonsense go unnoticed because you’re supposed to trust and respect your wife. My mistake, but at this point I feel bad for her. She’s obviously more impulsive and unhappy than I’ve ever known.

As for embarrassment, I’m sure she’s worried about that, and you’re right, that’s her problem. What worries me is the effect of the affair details on our kids. I think they’ve known us as a pretty close couple (I thought so too!) and I worry such a crazy story will damage their outlook on the relationships that they have.
My research tells me not to tell the kids (21 and 24) any details unless they are asking for details. At the same time I want the kids to know that I didn’t just flake out and leave her. I also want to let her family know some of the details, not as punishment but as a way to let them know what she is capable of since they will be the ones keeping and eye on her.

Sorry for the long posts. The advice around here is useful.

I learned of my father’s infidelity as an adult. I was a little older than your kids (I was 31). I thought they had a perfect marriage, at the time. They were closing in on their 50th. My own experience is that it had no impact whatsoever on my (or my sisters’, for that matter) views on relationships in general. The massive impact then, and the one I’m still feeling now 20-odd years later, is having to rewrite my understanding of my father, who went from the person I most admired to someone I can barely muster any respect for. But - and I want to stress this - most of the damage, or at least the worst of it, was done after it all came out. My mom handled it all with grace and aplomb. Dad did not, which was astounding since it really was entirely his fault.

So that’s my take on your kids. The key will be how each of you handles the situation. You seem like you have both feet planted firmly on the ground, so I feel like you’re going to be able navigate it with class. Your WW, on the other hand, is a bullshitter and supremely selfish, reminding me of Pops. He tried that strategy and worked out really, really badly for him.

Our marriage counselor wants to figure out why it happened. I’m not sure I care now. It happened because she wanted it to happen. She pursued it. She probably pushed the relationship too hard with this guy and that’s why he broke it off with her. She’s more of a stranger to me now.

First, that's not your Marriage Counselor's job to figure out. This is for your WW's Individual Counselor to assist your WW in learning what lead her to make her choices. If the MC is also your WW's IC then refuse to meet with the MC again. If interested get another MC that can assist in the dissolution of the marriage. Or save some money and just let the lawyers do the work. Your WW's issues are no longer your concern. The answer to the MC's question, of course, is in your above statement. Just like you, the 20-year+ combined history, your thoughts and feelings were of no concern to your WW when she was in her affair- only her base feelings of lust and desire mattered to her. Tell them both that you hope WW finally figures it out so maybe the WW can have a future relationship. But it will be with another man, not you. Your marriage was not a dress rehearsal for something else.

Second, look forward to the future with some hope and excitement. Yeah, you may have to fake it for awhile. Putting on the fake smile and sunny optimism for others that you're not quite feeling inside. If you haven't yet, take off your wedding ring (hopefully that's been done already in the past month.) Start doing some new and fun things you always wanted to do in your life. Make future travel plans. Sign up for cooking classes or a wine or bourbon tasting course. Join a runners group or triathlon group and make completing one a goal in life for you. If you haven't had a mid-life crisis yet, no better time to have one than now. Singles dance class? Foreign language class? The options are unlimited. Fine tune your body in the gym, have the glow-up-- change your hairstyle and get an all-new updated wardrobe. Start doing some fun things on a consistent basis by yourself and pretty soon your WW will just be another somebody that you used to know.

Absolutely refuse to be the stereotypical divorced 50-something year man wallowing alone in the house. You will not let that happen! Your life is about to get a lot better LFH, it's going to be different and not what you planned for but it will be better and you're not going to have to deal with your WW's bs much longer. Believe it, and start acting like it. And don't be surprised when the new, younger women start to come around seeing if they can be a part of it.

I’ll lead with this: I personally wouldn’t reconcile in your position, but to play devil’s advocate on the point you’re stuck on, let’s get pragmatic. It is clear from what you've described that you were the second choice. You would have to live with that. No amount of soft-pedaling changes the fact that if given the choice, she rather be sleeping with him. She was will to hurt you to sleep with this guy. However, does being "second" actually matter in the long run? Being a backup choice isn't a reflection of your inherent worth; it’s a reflection of someone else’s subjective, and often flawed, judgment at a specific moment in time.

Life doesn’t maintain a permanent leaderboard. The way you enter a situation matters significantly less than how you occupy the space once you’re there. The door is open now, and the opportunity in front of you is functionally identical to what it would have been had you been the first name on the list. Once you do the work, show your character, and build a life, that initial "ranking" evaporates into ancient history. Many of the most successful partnerships and projects started as a "Plan B" but became indispensable.

I'm sure many people who've reconciled have accepted this reality and are still making a good go of it. Though Id suspect many more people chose to rationalize this fact is some way or hide from it.

The real hurdle isn't her ranking—it’s your own internal compass. Can you live with this reality? Can your self-respect accommodate this history, and can your principles bend enough to keep your life from changing, or will the weight of being "second" eventually break the foundation? Take the win if you want it, but only if you can leave the "why" behind.

Personally I would leave her because I don't think a 5 year affair is even in the same ball park as forgivable, like I find even the thought of reconciling under those circumstances to be so inconceivable in line with my own self worth and principles, it would make my head spin... that being said if you're leaving because you were second choice, I'm not sure that's enough.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 12:12 PM, Tuesday, April 7th]

Frankly I would tell the kids irrespective of your eventual decision. After all – they know their mom tried to top herself recently. If you decide to divorce, then something like this. If not, then remove the part about divorce:

Your mom/my wife had an affair with NAME OF OM HERE starting xxxx and on-and-off for about five years. Although I wasn’t aware of it until recently, there caused tension in our relationship while it was ongoing, and upon discovery it has come to a peak. I have reached the conclusion that I’m not comfortable with remaining married to her, and have decided to divorce. That is my decision based on a lot of time and contemplation. This isn’t decided in a hurry nor in anger.
I do not want nor expect you to take sides and I remind you that this is your mother and deserves your support. You can give her support without condoning her past actions. This is an issue between me and her, but in light of her attempted suicide I would appreciate whatever support you can give her.

She’s more of a stranger to me now.

So real, LFH.
This is what I'm feeling. It is hard for me to look at him, I don't trust him, I don't know him. I was/am - for him - second best to sex workers, while he deceived me for decades. I can't/won't tell our kids this.

Frank- thanks for the advice, I’m really focused on breaking it to the kids properly, to do as little damage as possible.

Nuke- MC is not her IC. I think MC was trying to see if there is a way to dig the reason out, but I don’t think my wife is even sure why she did it, other than she liked the guy.
I’m trying to turn my mind more toward the future and I appreciate your inspiration!

Dr Soolers- that’s an incredibly nuanced and thoughtful exploration of "plan B". But it’s not just that, it’s the scenes that keep replaying in my head that I know will never stop if I stay, the thoughts that catch me from out of the blue and make my blood pressure rise and finally, it’s that she’s still not using the opportunity I’m giving her to proactively work toward R.

Big- as usual great advice for telling the kids. One question, they did know this guy (more my son) and he had a mentoring role for my son as well. Is telling them the name putting too much on them? Will they think they should have figured it out somehow and stopped it? You can’t know the answers but what do you think?

I can’t- when I look at her now, it’s like seeing a person who you knew as a healthy kid and is now an adult with some kind of addiction. You would love to take them back to that good, innocent time and protect them but you know you can’t. Anyway, it wouldn’t matter because this need is still inside them and won’t be discovered until the damage is done. (Sorry if that’s a little dreary.)

When reading advice offered here it makes sense to read posters responses on other threads. Might notice patterns, and you can better evaluate if those patterns are apt for you.
Notice how I haven’t pushed you to divorce or reconcile, but rather to keep a determination to get out of infidelity? I am urging you to use either R or D as your path to that destination, but also suggesting you use a certain predefined period to help you make up your mind. Probably the only thing I have warned you about is ending in limbo. If you decide to R or D, you need to commit to either and see them through.

To your advantage the first steps to decide on either R or D are basically the same. At some point on that joint path you might feel you have what you need to decide. Maybe you have reached that fork. IF you are already determined that this is a non-recoverable situation then you don’t need to respect your self-imposed deadline. You don’t need more truth. You don’t need more detail. If you believe both you and the MC have been clear to her on what’s needed and she’s not delivering then why expect change?

The emotions you are experiencing (as I can read them from your posts) are normal IMHO for where you might be emotionally. If I mention two respected posters here – Wifehad5 and Sisoon – both who reconciled eventually – I have no doubt that they too had the mind-movies, the visions, the trickle-truth and all that, and I am 100% certain they had to deal with that as part of their journey to reconciliation. Just like another not-so-respected poster – namely me, Bigger – decided immediately based on what I knew (actually – seeing as I caught them having sex then what I saw) to end a 5-year relationship and never looked back. I still had to deal with the trauma and pain and all that shit.

If you are decided, then stop the MC to save the marriage and as a tool to get the truth. You already have what you need. Be open and upfront to the MC and let him/her know that moving forward the sessions will be about how to divorce. Start making the practical plans about who moves out, how to handle joint finances for the interm-period, having the family-home apprised and seeing if you two can find common ground for the oncoming process.

Regarding the kids and the name of OM… Do you really think it would be better for them to have to think who the man that was around their mom’s life for 5 years might be? Think it’s better that then suspect Joe at the corner-house, Sam the handyman, Jack the manager at work… Do you think it’s OK for your son to still view his "mentor" through rose-tinted glasses?
Honesty is IMHO always the best path.

Agree with Bigger. Tell your children the name of the AP.

You've lived the past 9 years without the whole truth from your WW. You know how that feels. Why put your kids in a similar situation where the children are left to speculate and guess the identity of the AP or worse, attempt to begin their own 'investigation' of what happened? Tell them the name of the AP. Inform the children this was not a one-time act- it went on for years and both the WW and AP were willing participants in the affair and coverup.

Also, let them know directly (especially your son) that they are not to take any sort of action in reprisal against the AP or his family. Again, reminding them their mother made the same awful choices as the AP and would they want the children/family of the AP to take revenge against their mother- including physically attacking their mother? Serious violence is not unheard of in these situations and any action could lead to further reprisals from the AP or his family. I would suggest they avoid all future contact or communication with the AP and his family. Hopefully, your son has drifted away from the son of the AP after all these years.

Hopefully there are no upcoming birthdays or anniversaries approaching- if so, you may want to communicate with your WW that you will not be celebrating such occasions together. Obviously, not y'all's anniversary or each other birthdays. I would not even acknowledge the date of the wedding anniversary- nothing to celebrate. Your children's birthdays may be a little trickier but they're older so probably passed the family party stage- individual dinners with each parent out would be appropriate.

Keep detaching, stick to your self-imposed timeline, stay in communication with your attorney and let him know your plans so he could possibly advise you of issues you may have missed or not considered.

Keep resolute and be on guard for any future 'Hail Mary' type offers from your WW to keep you in the marriage. It is not unheard of for a wayward, with nothing left to lose, to offer the moon: post-nuptial agreement with very advantageous terms to you, one-sided open marriage for you going forward, unlimited future polygraphs paid by wayward to test their fidelity, etc. You know your financial situation/feelings the best to determine whether you would even consider such potential offers but don't be surprised when they're offered.

[This message edited by NukeZombie at 4:57 PM, Thursday, April 9th]

it’s the scenes that keep replaying in my head that I know will never stop if I stay, the thoughts that catch me from out of the blue and make my blood pressure rise....

What is it about leaving that will allow you to stop the mind movies? They're your mind movies - you can do with them what you will.

Alas, it takes time to realize the movies are under your control. What worked for me was letting them play out to the end. That seemed scary at first, but not for long.

What is it about leaving that will make the thoughts easier to avoid? Is avoidance useful anyway? IMO, it's not. You've got to face yourself as you are to heal, and healing is what will free you.

and finally, it’s that she’s still not using the opportunity I’m giving her to proactively work toward R.

Now, that's probably be crucial, IMO. If you want to R, there are probably things you can do to find out if your WS is a good candidate for R. If, OTOH, you're neutral or want to D, my reco would be to file. R works only if both partners want R and are willing to do the work - and it isn't too difficult to figure out what work is necessary. If your WS isn't stepping up....

Another reco: don't choose out of fear. In choosing between going and staying, seek to maximize joy, not to minimize pain. Set your path towards a good life, not towards the least pain. If you don't work the pain of being betrayed out of your system, you will make feeling joy much more difficult. Don't do that to yourself.

You're in the early days of recovery. Nobody - not even you - knows what changes you'll go through. Have faith in yourself to figure out the path you want to take. Trust yourself to make a decision in your own good time.

A deadline is a good idea, as long as you know that you can change it if that seems best. But remember that you're making decisions that are likely to affect decades of your life. Don't let your pain or your fear drive you.

I also endorse telling your kids who AP is up front. For one, you know better than most how extra painful it is to get information piecemeal. For another, your kids are at the age where they’re either still living at home or at least coming home for Thanksgiving and Christmas and whatnot. Your son might see this former mentor out at a bar and buy him a beer, only to find out later the truth. He will feel like he’s been made a fool of.

You asked this

Will they think they should have figured it out somehow and stopped it?

I doubt that. But I do think your son will feel used. As in, his mom only got him private lessons with Douchy McSlapshot to prosecute her A. I played hockey too. Dad was once very late picking me up at the rink - I was sitting outside on my bag with ice forming in my hair; it was getting dark when he finally showed up. He said he’d been running errands and lost track of time. I doubt that now, but when I asked him about it after all his infidelity came to light he said he couldn’t remember. Anyway, your WW will have to be ready for these kinds of things, and I’d let her know that sincere remorse will go a lot further to helping prevent a major rift than "I don’t remember".

To the point: "What is it about leaving that will allow you to stop the mind movies? They're your mind movies, you can do with them what you will."

While I can’t answer on behalf of LookingforHonesty, I can offer a perspective that might clarify the internal monologue many people experience in this situation. It’s important to validate that these instincts to leave are often backed by sound psychological principles rather than just a desire to "avoid" a problem.

While it’s true that "mind movies" happen in your own head, suggesting that you can simply "do with them what you will" ignores how human biology actually works. We aren't closed systems; our internal thoughts are constantly fueled by our external environment. Leaving a source of trauma isn't just about avoidance, it’s about creating the physical and psychological safety necessary for healing. It is incredibly difficult to edit the script of your thoughts when the "director" of your trauma is still in the room with you.

The science of context dependent memory shows that our surroundings act as powerful retrieval cues. A landmark study by Godden and Baddeley demonstrated that we recall information most easily in the environment where it was first experienced. In a trauma context, staying in the same space or near the same person keeps the brain "primed" to replay those mental loops because your surroundings provide constant, subconscious triggers. Hence why lots of couples attempting to reconcile may move, to help reduce these somewhat.

Furthermore, as Dr. Bessel van der Kolk explains in his research on the "smoke detector" of the brain, the amygdala stays in a state of hyper arousal as long as a threat is present. You cannot effectively downregulate your nervous system while you are still in survival mode. Removing yourself allows for neuroplasticity, the brain’s actual ability to rewire itself, which is much more effective when cortisol levels are lowered by a safe environment. You can’t expect to heal in the same environment that made you sick; moving away isn't running away, it's choosing a new theater where those "mind movies" aren't the only thing playing on the screen

All of this to say, I think if you are someone who is prone to really bad and excessive mind movies, leaving may be the most beneficial choice.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 10:04 PM, Thursday, April 9th]

What is it about leaving that will allow you to stop the mind movies? They're your mind movies - you can do with them what you will.

You truly believe the presence of his wife is no trigger at all, don’t you. Amazing.

** Member to Member **

Thank you. I'm no more or less amazing than the next person.

You counsel running from triggers. I counsel meeting them.

Mind movies are in the mind of a person. One's mind goes wherever the person goes. Maybe separation will help; maybe not. If separation makes the mind movies only seem to end, they're too likely come back when one least expects them and when they'll hurt badly.

Mind movies are a problem that need to be resolved, and running away is no resolution. I don't know if LfH would be running away. That's why I asked my questions.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:40 PM, Friday, April 10th]

I think the one thing that helped me get over being betrayed more quickly than other betrayeds that I know, was the fact I was stationed overseas with 4 months left to go on my tour of duty when I found out that my fiance had been cheating on me. When I finally got back to my hometown (about 5 months later), she had already left our town for work in Washington DC. I have not seen her since it happened. The last time I saw her was before I left to go overseas for my tour of duty.

I can only imagine how much worse it would have been had I seen her when I got back. Or worse yet, seeing her every day. This would trigger me constantly.

This happened to me back in the 50s. If anyone can be fortunate in these terrible situations, then I guess I was fortunate not being able to see her when I found out. I am positive it helped my healing process.

These days, as old as I am now, I very seldom ever think of her. I destroyed all my old photos of her. When I do think about it, I can't remember exactly what she looked like. I just remember the color of her hair and eyes.

I look at this situation as something that happened to me in the past. A life lesson. No better... no worse.

[This message edited by lrpprl at 5:50 PM, Friday, April 10th]

Big- I’m pretty sure there’s no infidelity right now, because she feels bad. It’s the future, when she is angry or bored or horny or whatever that she’s dangerous. No, I won’t end up in limbo.
The advice about telling the kids is sound. They would both want to know and I won’t keep that from them.

Nuke- good advice on the kids but they’re very laid back and I wouldn’t expect anything aggressive from them.
If she started offering me "reasons" to stay, I would be surprised. She would have to think of reasons and that means she would have to think about what she’s done and she’s been avoiding that for a long time now.

Sissoon- I know from all the years that I suspected she had had some kind of relationship with this guy, that my mind movies won’t stop. It seems logical though, that if you "disown" the person whose betrayal makes the mind movies painful, the movies won’t hurt as much.
Could you suggest a few ways that I can identify if she would be a good candidate for R? She’s failing most of the common sense tests.
I certainly won’t let anyone sway me on this decision. It’s the biggest one of my life.

Frank- thanks, I think telling the kids who it is/was makes the most sense. You better trademark Douchy McSlapshot, someone is going to steal that!
I’m sorry about your crappy hockey memory. It sucks to realize years later that you may not have been the highest priority of your parent.
If I had a dollar for all the bs "I can’t remembers" I’ve gotten the last month, I’d be rich. That nonsense is convincing me that we haven’t gotten past the surface of her ugliness.

Dr Soolers- the triggers that I’m experiencing while still in the house with her are everywhere. For me, thinking about being on my own in an apartment somewhere is comforting. I wouldn’t have to worry anymore and if I get triggered and start some mind movies, wouldn’t not caring for her in the same way will make it easier to handle?

lrpprl- if we didn’t have kids, I would go far away, just for my own sanity.

lrpprl- if we didn’t have kids, I would go far away, just for my own sanity.

Maybe you need to start getting an exit plan together. Staying married for your kids sake is not a reason to stay together.

There are plenty of people here at SI who can validate that their childhoods were difficult and miserable because two people chose to stay married "for the kids sake".

I think common sense is the best tool for evaluating candidacy for R. I took the advice from SIers, who seemed to agree that a good R candidate

- goes NC, even to the extent of getting a new job;

- gets scrupulously honest - no more lies (really, none), answers all questions (even when the questions have been answered again and again);

- gets transparent - opens all electronic media, keeps BS informed of location, activities, and companions at virtually all times;

-starts/changes IC with a goal of changing from cheater to good partner;

- backs off blameshifting, minimizing, and trickling the truth (i.e., may start doing these things but stops);

- works with BS to resolve issues that come up;

- MC when one (or both) partners want it.

You're right - you don't describe a good candidate for R. If you'd like to R, my reco is to lay out your requirements for R and see how she responds. If she signs on, R might have a chance. If she won't, you know R is not a good bet. She might be so scared that she doesn't know what to do, so knowing your requirements might be what she needs.

Again, if you're neutral on R/D or want D, there's no point in laying out your requirements; continue letting her sink or swim until you're ready to quit waiting. IMO, this isn't a moral choice. It just depends on what you want.

*****

Like Bigger, I'm in favor of giving up trying to control the outcome. Go for what you want - just know that you can't always get what you want. No one can. But if you ask sometime, you may just find you get what you need (Thanks, Mick Jagger and Keith Richards).

IMO, healing is the most important goal after being betrayed. That means (again IMO) processing the feelings out of one's body. If you do that, I'd bet a lot that you'll have no trouble with mind movies. You might see them once in a while, but they'll be easy to control.

Facing one's feelings is scary, hard work at first because being betrayed brings up every self-doubt, self-disgust, and self-hate one has ever experienced. It gets easier, IMO, as one finds the self-doubts, etc. are easier to knock off than one feared.

And doing the work is easier than living with the pain.

LFH, I actually think the perfectly innocent explanation from my dad is likely to be true. And in fairness, it happened in circa 1985, and was asking about it circa 2015. He legitimately might not have remembered! I just brought it up as an example of the kind of thing your kids might be asking about, if that makes sense.

How is your WW doing, has her health recovered? Mentally, do they think she’s ’out of the woods’ at this point?

You feeling any closer to telling the OBS?

For me, thinking about being on my own in an apartment somewhere is comforting. I wouldn’t have to worry anymore and if I get triggered and start some mind movies, wouldn’t not caring for her in the same way will make it easier to handle?

This is telling. You are getting closer and closer to the time of taking action for your own well being.

The real issue here is the state of the pair bond. The pair bond is the heart of it all. It is that ethereal state of being that pre-dates exclusive dating, engagement, marriage and building a family. It is the bond which actually moves the rest of it forward. The pair bond.

In your case, my assessment is that this bond has been extremely one sided for years now and is now so severely damaged that it is literally hanging on by a thread, maybe not even that. It may be that its just the memory of that bond that is keeping you in place but Ill bet that even this memory is fading fast.

As you work through this mess-of-her-making at your own pace, I wish for you the day that you've described with more comfort, less worry, more peace. It sounds good doesnt it? To be centered and at peace again. I can tell you that this reality is possible and can be waiting for you in the other side.

By all means, work at your pace but keep moving forward.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 12:06 PM, Sunday, April 12th]